riddler 0 #1 May 11, 2007 I really get the feeling that solar-energy providers are hiking their rates to absorb the credits that the government offers and still charge the consumer an awful lot of money. I just got a quote on solar energy for the house. The total - $48,000 I live in a duplex. The neighbors want to get it to. Close to $100k for both of us. The only reason I want to do it is to (hopefully) increase the resale value and appeal of my house, since I'm only planning to be here one or two more years. The technical details: 28 195-V panels (these are Sanyo and fairly high-quality), producing 4,900 AC Watts 5K Inverter All installation All paperwork with the power company to arrange for reselling the excess energy 20-yr warranty on the panels from the manufacturer 5-yr warranty on the installation from the installer (REC solar) Since it's bi-directional power, if the power coming from the power company goes out, I still don't get electricity (the inverter/synchronizer won't work without a 60-hz signal from the power company) The financial details: $48,000 to install $25,000 credit from the power company $2,000 tax credit $3,000 rebate from the installer My cost: $18,000 There may be an upcoming tax credit per watt installed, but we can't count on it. I sell back extra power, based on a 12-month cycle, at wholesale to the power company (wholesale = almost nothing). After reading billvon's saga of installing himself, I'm tempted not to install solar myself, despite my degree in electrical engineering and my tendancy to be a second-rate handyman around the house. Heck, I'm willing to pay a few thousand dollars to someone else just to avoid the paperwork with the power company. After looking at the components, I figure their totalcost of goods is about $24K (they must have reseller agreements with the PV manufacturer, giving them a good price). Cost of labor and equipment rental may be another $5K, but if they do it for both my neighbor and I (same roof!), they've got to save a bundle there. Where does the extra $20 or $25,000 go? Would they charge that much if there wasn't a tax credit and incentive from the power company? Who thinks this is worth it? Should I do this just to increase the resell value of my house?Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #2 May 11, 2007 Quote Since it's bi-directional power, if the power coming from the power company goes out, I still don't get electricity (the inverter/synchronizer won't work without a 60-hz signal from the power company) Well that sucks! What would it take to get around that? Batteries?"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rygon 0 #3 May 11, 2007 mmm im taking the output you get is dc (thats why it doesnt work???)..not quite sure what u mean about the power coming out?? should know this one cos i work at a power station lol (its gas not coal or oil so its quite clean) Although these renewable resources are a great idea the efficiency isnt (4% for solar panel....compared to 50% ish for gas turbines) The price has always kept me away as its not justifiable. Buy energy saving lightbulbes...keep everything off standby and dont leave heating/lights etc on when not needed seems the best reduction Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #4 May 11, 2007 You're better off putting in a nice Koi pond with a little deck. They look nice and buyers like them as it sticks out in their mind and they get pictures of themselves relaxing with a book in the nice weather next to the pond. I had one when I bought my house. I sat by the pond once (maybe twice). It was overrated. But damn it look nice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #5 May 11, 2007 Hell, I spent more time around the koi pond than you did. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #6 May 11, 2007 Sounds like a loser-winner deal to me with you being the loser and the installer being the winner.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #7 May 11, 2007 Pops!!!! Good to see ya last weekend. Hope you had some good students. You get the books I left ya? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowwhite 0 #8 May 11, 2007 Quote Hell, I spent more time around the koi pond than you did. I spent the last three days Knee deep in my fish pond. I'll get it all cleaned out and running, and I won't spend ten minutes out there again this year, but DAMN! it looks nice!skydiveTaylorville.org freefallbeth@yahoo.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,031 #9 May 11, 2007 >What would it take to get around that? Batteries? Batteries and a different sort of inverter. The Outback inverters are good battery-based inverters. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #10 May 11, 2007 Quote mmm im taking the output you get is dc (thats why it doesnt work???)..not quite sure what u mean about the power coming out?? I assume you're talking about this statement: QuoteSince it's bi-directional power, if the power coming from the power company goes out, I still don't get electricity (the inverter/synchronizer won't work without a 60-hz signal from the power company) By bi-directional, I mean I get power from the power company if I need it, and sell it back when I don't. By going out, I mean a power loss (blackout). In the event of a blackout from the power company, you would think that solar panels will still give you electricity. That would be true if you are not connected to the power company also. In some cases it's true even if you are connected to the power company, but not sending electricity back to them. But in the case when you have bi-directional, the hardware will not allow you to have power when the power company is not sending you electricity. This is a well-documented limitation of PV setups when you are selling electricity back to the power company. What would it take to get around that? Batteries? *** More like an act of congress. A german company has hardware that will allow bi-directional power to run in any of the three modes (power solely from the electric company, power solely from the PVs, or power from both). But I doubt we will ever see it in the US. The power company needs consumers to still be somewhat reliant on thier services - they have too much at stake. I'm pretty sure they will put money in the right hands to make sure that this technology never sees the light of US soil. Also, in Colorado, Excel energy has a mandate that a percentage of their customers are using renewable - that's why there is such a big incentive from them for us to get PVs here.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,031 #11 May 11, 2007 > I really get the feeling that solar-energy providers are hiking their rates . . . Not a whole lot. Going costs for installation are around $8 a watt around here. Yours is just under $10 a watt - so they're less than 20% higher than CA average. But in any case - why do you need a 5kW system? That will give you 30kwhr a day in the summer! You shouldn't need more than about 12kwhr a day to run a small house with the usual energy conservation features (sparing use of A/C, gas hot water heater+heat, CF lamps) >I figure their totalcost of goods is about $24K . . . Well, if you are talking about the Sanyo HIT 195 watt panels, they're running about $5 a watt nowadays (lots of demand from Germany/Japan.) So that's $27K just for the panels. Add in $2K for an inverter, $1K for racking, $1K for wiring/conduit/panels/disconnects and you're at about $31K parts cost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,031 #12 May 11, 2007 >But in the case when you have bi-directional, the hardware will not allow >you to have power when the power company is not sending you electricity. The Outback GVFX3648 inverter will let you sync up to the grid and sell power back when the grid is there. When power goes out it will automatically disconnect and run on its own batteries. I have one; works pretty well. Or you can get an entire prepackaged system with batteries: http://www.outbackpower.com/pdfs_spec/PS1.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #13 May 16, 2007 Thanks, Bill, this was a good tip. I asked the installer about it. Without saying they wouldn't install it, they're pretty much saying they won't install it. Their rationale is that the warranty isn't as good, and the efficiency of the system is less. I expected it to be less, but I wonder what the numbers are.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
