Madison 0 #26 October 15, 2009 Much thanks for educating me on the SIM's def. of CRW.Now maybe I can finally understand the hundreds and hundreds of stacks, planes, off-sets, rotations, and beginner CRW classes I've been involved with...maybe. So I'll share my thoughts that I shared with the OP, which he thanked me for, since he said he didn't really think of it as a CRW jump until I brought it up: "For what it's worth, I think it was a good idea. About a year or two ago Chris Gay was trying to integrate CRW into the AFF program. He took his nephew up doing AFF and did CRW with him during the canopy descent. Realizing the importance of this skill set for all skydivers. I don't think you were in the wrong and actually encourage what you are doing,( but I also don't know if you are some un-safe, arrogant, complacent, jumper, either. and if you are: chances are you don't know it either---just for the 'I don't know you and this is the internet' disclaimer. hahaha) Wasn't trying to be pissy about technicalities, but too many jumpers view CRW like wuffos view skydiving. We all do Canopy Relative Work when we are in the air with other canopies, but people lose sight of that with 'Big Sky Theory' and all the 'scary shit' that can happen. Scary shit happens when people fuck up: doing both contact and no-contact CRW. Dealing with it, and more importantly avoiding it, is where CRW training is very valuable. You obviously know this if you are trying to get others comfy in the air. Big-way RW organizers have said that if they had two jumpers with the same RW skill level, and they had to choose one for a big-way, that they would pick the one who took a CRW class over a canopy course~that speaks volumes. If both jumpers took the CRW class, I'd guess I'd pick the cuter one Thank you! & Blue Skies, April" Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #27 October 15, 2009 So let's see, northen Cali, DZ sensitive about CRW, DZO threw you off the DZ....I'm getting a mental picture of the DZ..... Either way, you got jacked. If you do have 500+ jumps, and a few months of experience as a coach at the DZ under your belt, then there should not have been a problem. What you did sounds completely reasonable. The plan of the dive itself was sound, and it reality, bumping end cells isn't really CRW. The key difference is that to form a stack or a plane, you have to fly your canopy literally in the way of the other canopy and let them hit you (more or less). Bumping end cells doesn't involve you crossing into the path of the other canopy. You both reatin your own clean air to fly in. Furhtermore, I am not aware of any regulation regarding when a jumper is qualified to do CRW, even if you wanted to call bumping end cells CRW (which it's not). If the DZO and S&TA agreed to the two of you getting out long and pulling high, and another instructor had no problem with you bumping end cells, and (here's the kicker) you had no reason to believe that the DZo would have a problem with bumping end cells, then I call bullshit on the DZO. I don't think you should take this crap either, If you got the boot for this, you have nothing to lose by going back and standing up for yourself. Call the DZO out on the this bullshit, even if you want to mention that you respect his authority, for sure explain that you had no reason to believe that there would be a problem, and that you don't agree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #28 October 15, 2009 Reverse engineering the SIM isn't really the best way to determine a definition. But definitions are really beside the point. Anyone who has issues with two adults performing the consensual act of bumping end-cells in the state of California in the context as described needs to pull their wadded up panties out of their sphincter."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #29 October 15, 2009 Quote.. bumping end cells isn't really CRW ..And no contact RW isn't really RW. Canopy Relative folks, not Canopy Dock Work.Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhanold 0 #30 October 15, 2009 Quote Much thanks for educating me on the SIM's def. of CRW.Now maybe I can finally understand the hundreds and hundreds of stacks, planes, off-sets, rotations, and beginner CRW classes I've been involved with...maybe. I apologize if I have offended you. I was not trying to quote the SIM as an absolute rather using it to help gauge the skydiving community’s idea of flying relative vs. the discipline of CReW. In this manner I agree with it... CReW's most basic formations are stacks and planes. Flying relative/bumping end cells and CReW are two different things in the eye of the skydiving community. They require different training, briefing, and equipment. The OP might not be qualified to lead someone with 75 Jumps on a CReW jump where a simple 2 stack is the plan but he sure sounds like he is qualified to take a newer jumper on a high pull and fly relative with an end cell bump. Am I wrong? Is that taste in my mouth window? Blue Skies, Ryan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Madison 0 #31 October 15, 2009 Offend me? No way, I'm pretty! Are you wrong? Yes, remarkably so! Is this a waste of my time? Of course, but it's too cold to jump. When you have a canopy collision, your 'definition' of CRW is gonna do you jack-shit. Take some responsibility, really. And that taste in your mouth? Shame, guilt, embarrassment, latex...I dunno. April Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhanold 0 #32 October 16, 2009 It is a good thing you are pretty because you're not very funny. One of my points here is your chance of a collision resulting in EPs is significantly reduced if all you are doing is flying relative. a definition of CReW doesn't help anyone in a canopy collision however it does help when trying to discern who would be a suitable canopy coach for different maneuvers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nbblood 0 #33 October 16, 2009 Quote What I have learned thus far is that this is at the very least a grey area and there are regional differences in weather or not this was a good idea. Second, I have learned that my own personal definition of what a CRW jump is needs to be at least re-examined, however that is why I came here and poured the details on the table for people to pick apart: To get educated. Thanks for everyones input, if there is more anyone has to add I'm game to hear it. I respect the learning attitude and your intentions as you've stated. IMHO, based on your side of the story, I think the jump was reasonable and well-planned. I wouldn't have had a problem with it. Yes, it was a CRW jump, but so what? Sounds like a well planned CRW jump. CRW is anything flying "relative". Proximity flying is "relative."Blues, Nathan If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SwampGod 0 #34 October 16, 2009 I pitch non-docking CRW as another method of canopy training for those who don't want to grab fabric. I don't mind, as I think it's all canopy relative work, and much learning is possible. But I also treat it as if we were going to dock. Keep in mind, some of the quickest wraps can occur when one canopy hits another from the side. If both canopies are heading in the same direction, it's not usually a big deal. But off-heading contact is something that often needs to be managed. Even no-dock CRW or "simple bumping of end cells" should, in my opinion, be briefed as though some contact will happen outside the plan... and at least one of y'all better know when it's better to turn tail and avoid the contact altogether. Otherwise, you are playing with fire. -eli Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
