packing: bag into container

[sparkie 0]

im a total newbie so forgive my ignorance ;P

this is the way I was taught to put the bag into the container:

Upon making all the stows and wrapping up the risers I put the bag into the container with the stows under it. Then I rotate the bag so that the stows face to the bottom of the container (towards me coz im sitting behind the rig). Now I close all the flaps etc.

My question: why not put the bag in the container with the stows towards the bottom of the container right away, instead of rotating it into that position?

Im thinking the rotation messes up your stows?!

Is there a point to this rotating?

Am I making any sense? ;P Perhaps i watched too many movies of bag locks and line dumps and am now spooked ;P

[yardhippie 0]

If the container and main are properly matched for size, then just placing the bag in the container with the stows toward the bottom is not as easy as it sounds.
Also, the "rotating" portion of the pack cycle should not be an aggressive step. if you have properly stowed the lines on the bag, have neatly routed the risers and remaining line, how would it mess up the stows?

Trying to stuff a 170 main into a container designed for that size without the rotation step would be more likely to shift or move your stows.

IMHO.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[michalm21 2]

uhmm, I was taught not to rotate the bag. I just place it stows down, so that when the container is on the ground, the bridle is in the center/middle sticking out.
Was told, this way the bag comes straight out on deployment

[yardhippie 0]

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uhmm, I was taught not to rotate the bag. I just place it stows down, so that when the container is on the ground, the bridle is in the center/middle sticking out.
Was told, this way the bag comes straight out on deployment

straight in comparison to what?
The point at which the bridle passes through the bag will be the first point to leave the container. The orientation of the bag after that point is depenent upon body position, line stows, bag fit in the container, etc. Straight being a realtive term, what do you want it straight towards?
I prefer my bag to go straight up and away!

placing the bag straight in or rotating, either method will result in the same orientation in the container before closing.
So how would either method affect the depoyment sequence?

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[Lindercles 0]

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placing the bag straight in or rotating, either method will result in the same orientation in the container before closing.
So how would either method affect the depoyment sequence?

I think when he said "stows down" he meant toward the backpad as opposed to toward the BOC, resulting in a 90 degree difference in orientation inside the container.

[yardhippie 0]

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placing the bag straight in or rotating, either method will result in the same orientation in the container before closing.
So how would either method affect the depoyment sequence?

I think when he said "stows down" he meant toward the backpad as opposed to toward the BOC, resulting in a 90 degree difference in orientation inside the container.

ooooohhhh...
I didnt think there was a mfg that supported that method.
Talk about nervous, That I wouLd NEVER do. Not to mention how the thick part of the bridle where it passes through the bag would affect the closing loop if it was anchored in the container and not on a flap.

somebody know if a mfg supports this method?

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[riggermick 7]

Quote

im a total newbie so forgive my ignorance ;P

this is the way I was taught to put the bag into the container:

Upon making all the stows and wrapping up the risers I put the bag into the container with the stows under it. Then I rotate the bag so that the stows face to the bottom of the container (towards me coz im sitting behind the rig). Now I close all the flaps etc.

My question: why not put the bag in the container with the stows towards the bottom of the container right away, instead of rotating it into that position?

Im thinking the rotation messes up your stows?!

Is there a point to this rotating?

Am I making any sense? ;P Perhaps i watched too many movies of bag locks and line dumps and am now spooked ;P

The reason for bag rotation in most modern main containers is to prevent premature bag lift off if the container is open prior to piolt chute inflation/ extraction. The concept is called "friction staging" and can be extensivly found in most modern reserve containers. Example: Pilot chute still in BOC, main container is knocked open, bridle extracts it'self and forms a loop. That's as far as it will generally go due to friction staging (top of bag and lines held under main containers cupped (in the top corners)shaped bottom flap).

If, by contrast the top of the bag/ lines are facing the pack tray and the same scenario happens the bag will lift off and the canopy will probably deploy into a horse shoe condition greatly compounding the emergency procedures. That's why the bag should be rotated.


Mick.

[michalm21 2]

"I think when he said "stows down" he meant toward the backpad as opposed to toward the BOC, resulting in a 90 degree difference in orientation inside the container.
"

Thank you, that's what I meant - ehhh couldn't get the wording together....

Well I'm not sure what the real difference is, that's how I was taught.... I was really shown both ways (stows facing backpad, stown facing boc) and said it really did not matter much, but the personal preference was stows facing backpad (so that bag does not have to rotate that 90degrees when pulled by the bridle)

Also, I've seen alot of poeple packing both ways...

[michalm21 2]

Thanks Riggermick! That makes alot of sense. I think I will change my habit and rotate the bag...

[jakee 1,563]

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ooooohhhh...
I didnt think there was a mfg that supported that method.
Talk about nervous, That I wouLd NEVER do. Not to mention how the thick part of the bridle where it passes through the bag would affect the closing loop if it was anchored in the container and not on a flap.

Grommet to pin is a recommended packing technique in the wingsuit world, where the bag can be coming out of the container at 45deg or more from vertical (making 135deg+ from standard stows to BOC configuration).

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[riggerrob 643]

The Wings manual says that smaller Wings containers may be packed either way: bridle attachment towards reserve or bridle attachment towards pin.
This is because smaller Wings main deployment bags are almost "square" when viewed from the side.

Orientation only becomes a problem when main d-bags are no longer "square." For example, a d-bag for a large student canopy may be significantly longer/taller than it is thick - especially in the "long" versions of Wings - then rotating the d-bag 90 degrees from its design orientation would make packing difficult.

[sparkie 0]

thanks all for the replies, learning a lot again ;P

I always like to know "why" a certain procedure is done instead of just doing it because I was told to do so.

thx

[fcajump 164]

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The reason for bag rotation in most modern main containers is to prevent premature bag lift off if the container is open prior to piolt chute inflation/ extraction. The concept is called "friction staging" and can be extensivly found in most modern reserve containers. Example: Pilot chute still in BOC, main container is knocked open, bridle extracts it'self and forms a loop. That's as far as it will generally go due to friction staging (top of bag and lines held under main containers cupped (in the top corners)shaped bottom flap).

If, by contrast the top of the bag/ lines are facing the pack tray and the same scenario happens the bag will lift off and the canopy will probably deploy into a horse shoe condition greatly compounding the emergency procedures. That's why the bag should be rotated.

Interesting... different from what I was told (oh so long ago...)
My understanding was that by having the bridle exit the container next to the reserve, in the case of a TIGHT container the bridle tension would "break" the shape of the rig (think of a profile view of the Strong tandem w/ drogue deployed) and enlarge the effective openning. This allowing the main bag to pull free.

Interesting the different stories we are told.

Always done it that way, and somehow it keeps on working.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[riggermick 7]

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The reason for bag rotation in most modern main containers is to prevent premature bag lift off if the container is open prior to piolt chute inflation/ extraction. The concept is called "friction staging" and can be extensivly found in most modern reserve containers. Example: Pilot chute still in BOC, main container is knocked open, bridle extracts it'self and forms a loop. That's as far as it will generally go due to friction staging (top of bag and lines held under main containers cupped (in the top corners)shaped bottom flap).

If, by contrast the top of the bag/ lines are facing the pack tray and the same scenario happens the bag will lift off and the canopy will probably deploy into a horse shoe condition greatly compounding the emergency procedures. That's why the bag should be rotated.

Interesting... different from what I was told (oh so long ago...)
My understanding was that by having the bridle exit the container next to the reserve, in the case of a TIGHT container the bridle tension would "break" the shape of the rig (think of a profile view of the Strong tandem w/ drogue deployed) and enlarge the effective openning. This allowing the main bag to pull free.

Interesting the different stories we are told.

Always done it that way, and somehow it keeps on working.

JW

The action you describe will happen also but is not the primary reason it is done. Even if your container was made out of sheet metal and would not "break" at the res/ main junction the bag would still be extracted via the pivot point provided by the friction staging. If a bag is placed in the other direction with the lines up (toward the res container) an open container pilot chute in tow can occur (it's happened before). Beating the side of the main conainer will usually dislodge the bag in this configuration but packing it this way in the first place is not recommended.


That's why we have manuals.

Mick.

[snafuhere 0]

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The reason for bag rotation in most modern main containers is to prevent premature bag lift off if the container is open prior to piolt chute inflation/ extraction. The concept is called "friction staging"

I have heard of that friction stuff
however the possibility of premature deployment compared to possibility of line twist on each and every deployment when rotating introduces more friction makes me:

--never rotate the bag--

not to rotate the bag is my own decision, not a sugestion to anoone
I jump javelin odyssey, where the closing pin is realy well protected and I always triple check the pin myself before exit

note that there are othe containers, where pin protection is not as secure

https://www.facebook.com/1skydive/

[rehmwa 2]

Would be nice to have some of the rig manufacturers respond on this one. I fit my bag in either container based on the size and fit. So both ways:

I have an Odyssey about 4 years old - the bag is very obviously cut to fit with stows to the backpad. It's a horrible fit with stows to BOC. So I stow with the lines to backpad. (I was also instructed to do this a few years by a very well known skydiver, FWIW since then he has held Excalibur for 4-way, who noted I was incorrectly rotating the lines to the BOC at the time - he also rep'd for both container and canopy manufacturers - so I took the advice seriously and have done it his way ever since. Every Odyssey I've packed, the bag is very clearly cut to fit lines to backpad - even more clear for the tinier ones.)

I also have a 1990 Vector 3.5 - the bag is obviously cut for just the opposite - stow the lines down by the BOC. It doesn't fit nicely AT ALL with lines to backpad. So this one I put the lines to the BOC.

So maybe a long time ago lines were meant to be rotated to the BOC area (as I recall from the late 80's when I was packing alot of old gear). But more current rigs might be different.

Best to get it from the manufacturer's manual if they have a preference.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[darkwing 5]

All this talk of "I was taught to do it this way..." bothers me a great deal. It is often said in threads here. There really is only one way you should consider doing it, the way the manufacturer says.

Beyond that, it is certainly OK to ask for reasons they say to do it that way, and what can go wrong if you don't. I recommend against being a test pilot at your experience level.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[yardhippie 0]

below is an excerpt from an email response from Mirage Sys. The subject of proper line placement in the pack trey had come up...

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For all regular jumping, I recommend leaving no more than 16” of line from the risers to last stow. The bags mouth lock with line stows always goes to the bottom of container with the bridle coming out the top/agents the reserve divider wall.



For someone that does lots of Bird Man jumps, it may be wise to have the main corners opened 2/3s to 3/4s (by a master rigger) and pack with the lines agents the reserve divider wall. This is not recommended for the active free flyer and occasional Bird Man jumper.

Ask and ye shall receive!

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[rehmwa 2]

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line stows always goes to the bottom of container with the bridle coming out the top/agents the reserve divider wall.

I still wish they'd all clarify just what they mean by "bottom" BOC or backpad can both be interpreted as the "bottom". In this case, they do define top as "agents (against?) the reserve divider wall, so I can assume Mirage recommends line to the back of the BOC.

manufacturer advice on how much line to leave after a stow is also a good bit to have

THANKS - one vendor down

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[sparkie 0]

I did check the manual of my icon. I know the stows need to go towards the boc, but i was wondering why one would not just put it into the container that way instead of first putting the bag into the container with the stows facing tha backpad and then turn it (gently) so that the stows face the boc.

edited for typos ;P

[yardhippie 0]

the rotation is a method of getting the bag oriented in that direction.
Ive not seen too many containers that would allow you to "just put it on the container that way" when you take canopy size vs. containers size.

I speculate that if you could just drop the bag into the pack tray w/ the stows facing the BOC the 'friction' component of that container would be zero. Also, I wouldnt want to have all my risers/excess line nice and neat in the bottom (backpad) of the container and then trying to wrestle a bag thats larger than the container. I think that scenario would be more likely to cause bag lock, or tension knot situations.

IMHO.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[riggerrob 643]

I still wish they'd all clarify just what they mean by "bottom" BOC or backpad can both be interpreted as the "bottom". In this case, they do define top as "agents (against?) the reserve divider wall, so I can assume Mirage recommends line to the back of the BOC.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Parachute nomenclature was standardized decades ago, but - for some silly reason - every new generation of jumpers feels an odd urge to re-define stuff.
Standard nomenclature relates to the way the parachutist sees things while hanging under an open parachute.
The left riser always extends upwards from the parachutist's left shoulder.
The pilot chute is always at the "top."
The BOC is always at the "bottom."
Current fashion has wingsuiters packing with lines "against the pack tray" or "towards the back pad."

[rehmwa 2]

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The pilot chute is always at the "top."

damn new generation of jumpers - why can't they just remember the standardized nomenclature you learned in the 70's (that's like yelling at Bob for asking a question you just answered for Harry yesterday - "I JUST ANSWERED THAT QUESTION, DAMMIT"

they weren't there, bob - it doesn't hurt to refresh it with them - thanks for doing just that

I like this nomenclature, but I wouldn't say it's "silly" if someone asks to be sure. Especially when it's the primary distinction in a safety discussion.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[fcajump 164]

From the Sunpath Jav/Od manual:

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Place the bag in the container with the line stows toward the bottom. This position is important; if the line stows are toward the top, it may be more difficult for the pilot chute to extract the bag (FIG. 7).

BTW - most of the "what I was taught" that I've read here concerned the philosophy behind the "why"... Even those who have stated that they deviate from the mfg instructions go on to state that they don't advise anyone to follow their example.

For the reader, I would suggest that if you deviate from the mfg instructions, you ARE a test jumper and subject to your own folly. Further, if you have less than 200 jumps and packjobs on the gear, you have NO business being a test jumper. But thats just my $.02

JW

(there are no mispellings in my posts, only differences in opinion between me an the publishers of English dictionary's... who world-wide can't make up their minds anyway... )

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...