riggerrob 643
Aren't the elastics a bit redundant though?? I put my steering lines ( all 8 ) down the middle as the very last thing I do before bringing up my slider and cigar-rolling (flat pack). Isn't that enough?? I suppose the stowing elastics would be much more beneficial for the P.R.O. pack as you said, when you transition from shoulder to floor, you want to have the least amount of movement or disturbance in your lines.
You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.
The rigger at my DZ said something like, while they were PRO packing tandems, the most common mal was a lineover. Now they switched to flat packing, and the cutaway rate is about the same, but they're usually tension knots.
Based on the poll results, P.R.O. packing is the clear cut winner in popolarity. So if mal rates are similar, do we choose PRO over flat based on speed, and getting the rig back in the air as fast as possible??
EDIT : I'm not the fastest packer by any means, but I can
flat pack a sigma tandem in ten minutes (safely), if i have to. But if I recall from an older thread, some people are PRO packing tandems in 5 minutes or less ??
EDIT : I'm not the fastest packer by any means, but I can
flat pack a sigma tandem in ten minutes (safely), if i have to. But if I recall from an older thread, some people are PRO packing tandems in 5 minutes or less ??
You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.
jheadley 0
QuoteBased on the poll results, P.R.O. packing is the clear cut winner in popolarity. So if mal rates are similar, do we choose PRO over flat based on speed, and getting the rig back in the air as fast as possible??
EDIT : I'm not the fastest packer by any means, but I can
flat pack a sigma tandem in ten minutes (safely), if i have to. But if I recall from an older thread, some people are PRO packing tandems in 5 minutes or less ??
A lot of TI's think that flat packing makes them open harder. I've only flat packed a few tandems but the TI said they opened fine. I think with the tail not being wrapped, it makes them open a little harder, especially on the EZs since they always open hard anyway. Keeping the slider quartered and against the stops is harder too.
And as everyone knows, flat packing gives you a 90 degree off heading opening.
Quote
And as everyone knows, flat packing gives you a 90 degree off heading opening.
Is that true?? I figure if you do a proper (stack) flat pack (A on B on C on D), the canopy is oriented to fly straight and on-heading? I could be wrong.
You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.
riggerrob 643
The worst was the flop/roll packing method that Strong Enterprises recommended for their first-generation, F-111 mains.
One end cell always opened a second or two before the other.
Even the best packers could only reduce that to a "firm" opening. So you had to chose between getting PUNCHED in the left shoulder or right shoulder.
Openings on F-111 mains - built by Strong - never got comfortable until our packer started PRO packing. Openings were still "firm," but at least both shoulders absorbed opening shock evenly.
One end cell always opened a second or two before the other.
Even the best packers could only reduce that to a "firm" opening. So you had to chose between getting PUNCHED in the left shoulder or right shoulder.
Openings on F-111 mains - built by Strong - never got comfortable until our packer started PRO packing. Openings were still "firm," but at least both shoulders absorbed opening shock evenly.
jheadley 0
QuoteQuote
And as everyone knows, flat packing gives you a 90 degree off heading opening.
Is that true?? I figure if you do a proper (stack) flat pack (A on B on C on D), the canopy is oriented to fly straight and on-heading? I could be wrong.
That's why I had the
. You're right, a proper flat pack has everything oriented the same way as a pro pack (the nose is a little off though). A lot of people think that a flat pack is put into the bag 90 degrees off, because that's how it starts out. Do a practice Flat pack, and then open it up. It'll look exactly like a pro pack, except for one interesting thing. On one side, the canopy material will be flaked to the outside, and on the other side, it's flaked to the inside. Because of this, and because the nose isn't going to be right in the center, I do think it may open off heading a little more, but NOT because of what's commonly thought that it's actually put in the bag 90 degrees off heading. I've only done a few flat packs so I'm just talking out my ass though.
I actually practiced flat packing my main (sabre 2 150) last night, it is definitely hard to keep that slider evenly quartered and against the stops. I'm expecting it to pop me a little on opening tomorrow. I'll try doing some flat packs this weekend and compare the openings. One nice thing is you can really roll the nose tight, which might help make up for the slider.
Riggerrob, I was looking at the dual hawk manual a few days ago and saw they actually roll pack the reserve? That's pretty weird. I don't really understand how roll packing even works.
Hey, maybe that guy asking about how to speed up openings on his pilot should try flat packing?
If you are PRO packing a tandem canopy in 5 minutes or less, you are sacrificing the quality of the packjob for speed. It's going to be sloppy and you are going to get a higher rate of tension knots and line-overs. I don't care who you are. 5 minutes is pretty quick for a sport rig. And that's if everything falls into place. Break an elastic or miss grabbing a nose cell and you are thrown off your rythym.
It can be done sure... but not with care. Anyone who says that they consistently pack tandems in 5 minutes and doesn't cut corners (not flaking, leaving elastic stubs on D-bag, not rolling tail) is full of shit. 10 minutes is still quick for a good packer. Flame away...
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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson
It can be done sure... but not with care. Anyone who says that they consistently pack tandems in 5 minutes and doesn't cut corners (not flaking, leaving elastic stubs on D-bag, not rolling tail) is full of shit. 10 minutes is still quick for a good packer. Flame away...
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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson
Quote
I actually practiced flat packing my main (sabre 2 150) last night, it is definitely hard to keep that slider evenly quartered and against the stops. I'm expecting it to pop me a little on opening tomorrow. I'll try doing some flat packs this weekend and compare the openings. One nice thing is you can really roll the nose tight, which might help make up for the slider.
Because I flat pack all the time, I can honestly say that quartering the slider is not difficult at all when your stack is already laying on the floor. Its a matter of pulling it right up to the stops, then lifting your rear riser line sets and tucking the slider in deep on both sides. I can't say that the slider is any more loose this way than if you quarter in a PRO pack. You may have it quartered nicely when you are still standing, but once you place the canopy on the floor, the slider will come down a bit from the stops inevitabely. Or at least it seems like it would a little.
You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.
QuoteIf you are PRO packing a tandem canopy in 5 minutes or less, you are sacrificing the quality of the packjob for speed. It's going to be sloppy and you are going to get a higher rate of tension knots and line-overs. I don't care who you are. 5 minutes is pretty quick for a sport rig. And that's if everything falls into place. Break an elastic or miss grabbing a nose cell and you are thrown off your rythym.
It can be done sure... but not with care. Anyone who says that they consistently pack tandems in 5 minutes and doesn't cut corners (not flaking, leaving elastic stubs on D-bag, not rolling tail) is full of shit. 10 minutes is still quick for a good packer. Flame away...
Well said . . . I totally agree. Speed is one thing, but sometimes it just gets out of hand. And yes, parachutes want to open, but why increase your chances of a mal?
You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.
jheadley 0
Quote
Because I flat pack all the time, I can honestly say that quartering the slider is not difficult at all when your stack is already laying on the floor. Its a matter of pulling it right up to the stops, then lifting your rear riser line sets and tucking the slider in deep on both sides. I can't say that the slider is any more loose this way than if you quarter in a PRO pack. You may have it quartered nicely when you are still standing, but once you place the canopy on the floor, the slider will come down a bit from the stops inevitabely. Or at least it seems like it would a little.
I was only able to do 2 flat packs this weekend before I got sucked into packing tandems, but both were nice and soft, even the one I thought would be quick. One on heading, the other 90 off (not bad for a Sabre 2 though). Not statistically significant, but I'll try to do more later. I guess like anything, you just get used to it if you do it a lot. I think gravity just helps you out with quartering the slider in a pro pack, in a flat, I was constantly having to push the slider against the stops, it'd drift down, I'd s-fold it, push the grommets back up, bag it, the push the back up one more time before closing the bag... I know this never happens on my pro packs since I've dumped probably 200 of them to inspect them and they come out the exact same way I put them in. When pro-packing, I wrap the tail very tightly at the top, just above the slider grommets so there's no way it can go anywhere. I'll have to try the trick of lifting the rear risers to tuck the slider in deep. The hardest part I have trouble with is getting the slider in front of the nose quarter. I still don't even want to try flat packing a set-400 though, damn that'd suck.
There is nothing fun about flat packing ZP elliptical tandems. I only have experience with Sigma, but the set-400 sounds way worse. I personally would have difficulty PRO packing a 400 sq.ft. canopy without a drophook. I guess we all get good at our own artform and there are safe and not-so-safe ways of doing both.
You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.
I used to pack at STI. Nothing was ever p.r.o. packed, even when I started in there in '97. In fact, at that time we only had two tandem rigs and they were flat packed because the DZO believed that method to be more reliable. I don't think it ever had anything to do with better statistics because the D.Z.O. never, that I know of, let any rig by p.r.o. packed unless it was your own.
In my experience, as long as a person packs competently, rigs will open. Six grommet sliders were a problem with Sigmas at one D.Z. I worked at, and other than that, bad line trim tends to cause the majority of screwed up openings that I've witnessed. Packer boy is right about one thing... you rush a pack job, you're gonna get a grab bag. Packing quickly and competently is one thing. Packing hurriedly and carelessly is another.
Just my two cents.
In my experience, as long as a person packs competently, rigs will open. Six grommet sliders were a problem with Sigmas at one D.Z. I worked at, and other than that, bad line trim tends to cause the majority of screwed up openings that I've witnessed. Packer boy is right about one thing... you rush a pack job, you're gonna get a grab bag. Packing quickly and competently is one thing. Packing hurriedly and carelessly is another.
Just my two cents.
You've got that right . . . if you think you are going to come to STI to PRO pack student gear, you'll be sadly disappointed. That's what happened to a certain individual from Burnaby this year when he came to pack for us. He tried and tried, but our DZO won't budge. PRO packing tandems is strictly forbidden, end of story. I guess when we all have our own DZ we can run it any way we please, until then, I'll fly by their rules, even if I don't particularily agree with them.
You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.
Anybody who claims to be able to pack a tandem in 5 minutes is full of shit, and anybody with enough skill and experience to actually be able to pull it off would know better anyway. packing a sport rig in 5 minutes is no big deal. i do it all the time. but personally, in my opinion, rushing a tandem rig like that is just asking for tension knots or lineovers. just me two cents. by the way, ive pro packed probably over a 1000 tandem rigs and never had a problem.......but i also dont try to do it in 5 minutes...
blues
blues
QuoteAnybody who claims to be able to pack a tandem in 5 minutes is full of shit, and anybody with enough skill and experience to actually be able to pull it off would know better anyway.
Well said. What's the general number of Tandem rigs at the average DZ?? We have 7 Sigma rigs, so on the really busy days . . . we're scrambling
.You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.
QuoteIf you are PRO packing a tandem canopy in 5 minutes or less, you are sacrificing the quality of the packjob for speed.
bullshit, the fastest actual timed one ive done was 5:50 and that was with two riggers watching me, one of them being my boss at the time, even then that was in the dead of winter and i hadnt done crap for 2 months. most of the other little poo flingers that work for me can pack damn near close to that, probably faster if they didnt need a cigarette every 3 minutes
if you pack enough tandems every day, all summer, for 3 years you either learn to do them fast or you break yourself
as for being full of shit well, anybody who knows me says i am all the time
We usually pack ours very carefully...
well that's something that I would love to see in person. I've seen an 8 minute pack job from start to close and the guy was blazing !!! There were flames and lightning bolts shooting out of his ass. I did not completely like the speed at which the line sets were quartered and then how the roll was dropped and wrapped. That's where the mals happen. And to think that you could shave that down another few minutes?? I believe the word is LUCK. LUCKY that all the chutes have opened fine SO FAR. But let me make something perfectly clear here. That's just my opinion. I do not have nearly enough knowledge in the sport to push my opinion as prophecy. And a lot of my friends will say I'm full of shit too . . . so we're all good then.
.You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.
QuoteI did not completely like the speed at which the line sets were quartered and then how the roll was dropped and wrapped. That's where the mals happen.
really? prove it.
from seeing countless thousands of packjobs, ranging from complete shit to pass-the-starch perfect. all ive been able to conclude is that (yes, im going to say it even though everytime I hear some one say it i feel like kicking a puppy)
parachutes want to open, and sometimes they just don't
not to say that since i pack like shit, everybody else should too
ahhh the good old xkeys packing mat. Miracles do happen there. Why I remember getting people packed up on a fuel load. I think you can be fast and pack well, but I have to agree with Al. Parachutes are designed to open and sometimes, no matter what you do, they just don't. I've wrapped breaklines together with a rubber band and the tandem still line-overed. The line stows were neat but tension knots still happened. It's not packing quickly that does it. Sometimes a mal is just an "act of god" as one rigger used to call it. Don't hold your breath. You will eventually pack a mal.
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