likearock 2 #1 November 7, 2006 Quote BASE pilot chutes are generally larger than skydiving pilot chutes due to the larger (i.e. heavier) canopies they are required to extract and at lower airspeeds and are therefore more cumbersome to handle and stow. A tool could be used to control this more unmanageable material (especially when constructed out of zero porosity material) The trend in skydiving PCs is away from zero-p pilot chutes. Is it more important to have zero-p for subterminal deployments? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #2 November 7, 2006 Quote The trend in skydiving PCs is away from zero-p pilot chutes. Is it more important to have zero-p for subterminal deployments? This is a subject of some debate amongst BASE jumpers, and is probably beyond the scope of this discussion. You might want to start a new discussion in the BASE forum to get more opinions on it. The vast majority of BASE PC's in use today are ZP, though, and the idea of using tools to pack the PC is generally more applicable to those.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #3 November 9, 2006 Quote The trend in skydiving PCs is away from zero-p pilot chutes. Interesting comment. I don't know a single jumper who uses a pc that isn't zp. I believe that all container manufacurers provide zp pilot chutes as standard. If there's a trend I'm not seeing it, at least in this part of the world.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
padalcek 9 #4 November 9, 2006 Quote Interesting comment. I don't know a single jumper who uses a pc that isn't zp. I believe that all container manufacurers provide zp pilot chutes as standard. If there's a trend I'm not seeing it, at least in this part of the world. know anybody that jumps a javelin? all javelins come standard with f-111 pilot chutes only. wings and rws upt give you a choice.Padalcek - CCO, HF-17 http://www.theflyinghellfish.com I'm not a real skydiver - but I do play one on dz.com. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 164 #5 November 9, 2006 Quote Quote Interesting comment. I don't know a single jumper who uses a pc that isn't zp. I believe that all container manufacurers provide zp pilot chutes as standard. If there's a trend I'm not seeing it, at least in this part of the world. know anybody that jumps a javelin? all javelins come standard with f-111 pilot chutes only. wings and rws upt give you a choice. Taken from the current Sunpath order form: Quote 4. Main Deployment. Pilot chutes are Black F-111 only and will include a Hackey handle at no charge. Freefly Handle is a soft pad available as an alternative to the Hackey @ no charge Surprise to me though... it seems to me that most are using ZP... but I have not specifically polled them. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #6 November 9, 2006 I am seperating the discussion on Pilot chute material since it does not appear to be a factor in this incident outside of packing it.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #7 November 9, 2006 Quote Interesting comment. I don't know a single jumper who uses a pc that isn't zp. I believe that all container manufacurers provide zp pilot chutes as standard. If there's a trend I'm not seeing it, at least in this part of the world.I have a F111 PC on one of my rigs.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #8 November 9, 2006 I have a 32" F111 on one, and 24" ZP on the other, both of them are kill line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #9 November 10, 2006 Quote Quote The trend in skydiving PCs is away from zero-p pilot chutes. Interesting comment. I don't know a single jumper who uses a pc that isn't zp. I believe that all container manufacurers provide zp pilot chutes as standard. It looks like you believe wrong. At the very least, Javelin and Mirage both have F-111 as standard for their PCs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #10 November 10, 2006 Quote Quote Quote The trend in skydiving PCs is away from zero-p pilot chutes. Interesting comment. I don't know a single jumper who uses a pc that isn't zp. I believe that all container manufacurers provide zp pilot chutes as standard. It looks like you believe wrong. At the very least, Javelin and Mirage both have F-111 as standard for their PCs. And Sunpath recomends AGAINST using ZP PC on their RigsYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #11 November 10, 2006 Quote And Sunpath recomends AGAINST using ZP PC on their Rigs So how about someone answering my original question? Do base jumpers prefer zero-p PCs because there's some evidence they perform better in sub-terminal deployments? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #12 November 10, 2006 I perfer ZP since it has constant drag across the whole life of the PC. My F111 original one started towing on me on Birdman jumps so I first looked at the kill line and it was fine, so I looked at the poresity and it was high but a master rigger and 2 riggers didn't think it was excessive and was fine. After another 5 jumps where I'd feel the PC towing until I picked up enough speed that it would open normally. That was ~750 jumps on the PC. I replaced it with a ZP one and have put another 400 jumps on it and the new one is still not letting air through it. Not a lot of people actually keep a rig long enough to wear out a PC, I've put just under 1200 jumps on my first container and its still going strong.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #13 November 10, 2006 I stand corrected, there are at least two manufacturers that use f-111 pc's as their standard issue. I can't imagine why Sunpath would reccommend against using a zp pilot (unless it relates to using a non-spandex boc) but they clearly must have a reason. I didn't find any reference to zp pc material at all on their website. Javelins aren't popular here nor are Microns, again no f-111 pc's here that I know of. As I mentioned the trend, if there is one, hasn't reached the fourth corner. More to the point is your question regarding the use of f-111 pc's for low speed deployments. Are there any advantages of f-111 over zp that aren't better resolved by venting? Even low speed/ low altitude jumps? Thanks Eric for moving this discussion to a more apprpriate forum.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cderham 0 #14 November 10, 2006 On the other side PD recommends a f-111 PC for use with Katana's. FYI Chris It's Jimmy Time!! http://www.facebook.com/pages/Team-Fast-As-Fuck/6099474213 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tornolf 0 #15 November 10, 2006 Quote Quote And Sunpath recomends AGAINST using ZP PC on their Rigs So how about someone answering my original question? Do base jumpers prefer zero-p PCs because there's some evidence they perform better in sub-terminal deployments? Depends on the jumper. Most I've seen (including myself) use ZP due to increased snatch force which is important in overcoming the inertia of the canopy and lines at low airspeeds. I've only seen a couple of PCs larger than 36" that were F-111.A waddling elephant seal is the cutest thing in the entire world. -TJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #16 November 10, 2006 Quote I can't imagine why Sunpath would reccommend against using a zp pilot (unless it relates to using a non-spandex boc) but they clearly must have a reason. F111 pilot chutes are less likely to lead to premature deployments freeflying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #17 November 10, 2006 Quote F111 pilot chutes are less likely to lead to premature deployments freeflying. True but this problem seems more a function of loose boc's and poor pc packing. The slipperiness of zp can't be ignored though. As far as high snatch force goes isn't using a smaller sized zp pc going to achieve the same reduction as using f-111? I'm not a fan of f-111. It doesn't have the stability of porosity that zp has so it constantly degrades and needs to be replaced more frequently. It snags more easily. It seems to be used as a crutch to solve premature deployment issues. It certainly has gentler opening charachteristics (lower snatch force) but so does a smaller surface area of zp. Since f-111 is less slippery coming out of a boc a higher likelyhood of horseshoe malfunctions might be expected. Etc. etc. Apparently some manufacturers feel differently than I do and they are certainly more qualified to assess appropriate design materials. I'd like to hear their reasoning in choosing f-111. Sorry Wayne, we're way off topic here, a post in the BASE forum might get more response. I'm surprised at my lack of awareness of the apparent popularity of f-111 pilot chutes. Thats what happens when you live on an island.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packerboy 3 #18 November 11, 2006 I'm not very travelled as a skydiver at all, but I find it surprising at a N.A. DZ that Microns and Javelins aren't popular. What do you have there? Wings and Mirages? Just curious, since of all the rigs I have seen Javelins and Microns seem to be the best. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ronaldo 0 #19 November 11, 2006 Just curious, why not using a less slippery ZP fabric for the PCs? The Gelvenor fabric on my canopy feels and packs almost like low porosity fabric. Wouldn’t it solve the premature deployment issue?Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeffrey 1 #20 November 11, 2006 The handle design and a good quality spandex is the trick to preventing the premature deployment issue on BOC’s. I addressed this years ago. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ronaldo 0 #21 November 11, 2006 I was just referring to the argument of low porosity fabric being less prone to slip out of the pouch. I do agree that the key solution is good bridle protection, well designed pouches and handles that don’t oscillate too much into the wind (such as freefly puds). RonaldoEngineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #22 November 11, 2006 A lot of Infinity rigs here as they were built locally. The farther south you go the more variety there seems to be. I don't have anything against most newer rigs (some riggers might be better able to point out deficiencies) but I find my Infinities to be designed and built as well as any and better than most. Than again I don't get around much either.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fledgling 0 #23 November 23, 2006 I believe it is because you would need a significantly larger F111 PC to provide the same amount of snatch force as a ZP PC. If you need a 32inch f111 PC for skydiving to do the same job as a 24inch ZP PC that is a size increase of about 30%. Now a commonly used BASE PC is a 48inch ZP PC so if you wanted the same amount of snatch force from an F111 PC it would have to be much larger than that. But then if your PC is too large then you start running into trouble with the amount of time it takes your PC to inflate and start to do its job. So people use ZP PCs in BASE because they provide more snatch force for less size. Note that some people do use F111 PCs for terminal delays. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base689 0 #24 November 24, 2006 > all javelins come standard with f-111 pilot chutes only ———————————————————————————— My Javelin (1999) came with a 32" F-111 collapsible PC (hackey sack as handle); and strange thing is that it came with F-111 "disk" that actually was two half-circles sewn together on a diameter ; after one year or so I got it replaced by a 28" ZP collapsible PC (and with a platsic tube as handle).Stay safe out there Blue Skies and Soft Walls BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #25 November 24, 2006 Upon one canopy manufacturer 24" ZP kill line PC is enough for any canopy size 150 and under. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
