shah269 0 #51 August 13, 2009 So from reading all this, it's about getting the height right and fully commiting to the flare? God it sounds so easy but I know it's not.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 3 #52 August 13, 2009 > fully commiting to the flare That is it!!! I've flew a Nav200 this weeked and when I've flared higher in the sky I've felt that .... man this baby needs a lot of strength to be flared. It hurt a bit. When I flare I rotate my arms sideways because I find it easier to do a symetric flare (it's a personal thingy). It also makes me feel more the presure of the flare. And I think if I'm half brakes in the sky (doing the cross) people will know from distance that I'm in half brakes wanting to separete from group so they'll do a dive. Anyway ... So this Nav had a lot of pressure in the flare. At landing time I didn't feel the high presure anymore. I was immerse in the flare that I didn't pay any attention to what my arms felt. I was feeling how my trajectory changed with every input, the ground passing fast under me and I was waiting for the moment when it feels right to start running. I love no wind days for that experience. I don't know if this story helps you in anyway but I think that flaring you can only learn by flaring. A radio will make your learning process safer.Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #53 August 13, 2009 I work in a high tech facility with many people who have IQ's that make most people look dumb. One of them after hearing about what happened suggest perhaps a simple acoustic range finder strapped to ones leg with an audible signal would assist in learning height perception. He even had one on hand, about 1in across and ran on a 9volt battery. It was solid state and looked very rugged and could be set to buzz when a given range was needed. I can see it as a good tool if used properly. Maybe when I get better and I gather the guts to get back into the sport (thought 8 jumps hardly qualifies as being in the sport) I'll give it a shot.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 3 #54 August 13, 2009 I see what you mean. Man, I was in the same mental state few years ago. Analyzing and doing things with my brain. It comes from my other passion (that now is fading ). My advice is to practice how to shutdown your thinking and just feel. If flare would have been unrisky you will never truly love landing when, YOU alone got it ... and not when you do it mechanically when a device tells you so. A good landing it's a great compliment for you!! Be honest to the experience of flare and you'll naturally shut down your brain. You'll also have to find ways to get rid of the fear that is in your head from the previous landings and B. Germain teaches that when you admiring you are not afraid. It took me some time but that is soo true and is soo easy to find yourself admiring the sky when you fly so it's all cool yo! Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #55 August 13, 2009 all that technical stuff aside, whats most important is FEELING your canopy.. otherwise some dude would of developed a tool already that would allow you to switch to auto-mode and you'd do a 200 yards swoops from jump #1 on.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #56 August 13, 2009 I was thinking it would make a good teaching aid. It's not easy to judge 20ft or 10ft.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 3 #57 August 13, 2009 Totally agree with ya. The same thing happens in longboarding. You have 3 ways of braking Bail Out (limited by your running speed) Foot Brake (at high speed it will turn in a speed wobble due to the change of center of mass when leaving the tuck position) and slides (which are hard to learn but they work like magic at high speeds). All of those methods are fun to learn Now, some guy invented this braking device called pogo brake for longboard and I'm like fuck this takes away all the fun of learning/discovering new things you can do! Plus when you have your slides dial in, you're ready in all the other aspects (feeling the board) for speed boarding downhill which is fooking cool. This braking device will let kids go on hills behind their braking and control level and they will get hurt. Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #58 August 13, 2009 Yeah but look at me, one bad mistake and I'm out for a year. If I had a better understanding of how high I was I would have flared harder and maybe have walked away. It won't be the end all and be all of the sport but it will help poeple learn to judge height off the deck.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 3 #59 August 13, 2009 Hey Shah, I can relate 100% to what you are experiencing right now. There's is a device like the one you're thinking of but only better. You favorite instructor and a radio. Insist on it every jump!! Jump the same rig all the time until you learn to flare and pay him one jump on that rig to try it. Decide with him how long (2sec, 3sec) the flare should be and have him tell you when to start. This works! Edit to add: Plus you're going to do a lot H&P before all the other students And if you're going to the DZ this weekend take the time to learn how to pack so that next time when you're there you can help pack and make friends! Who knows maybe in the future you'll move there Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #60 August 13, 2009 d123 Yeah sorry abou that, I'm an engineer and we engineers are always trying to find mechanical solutions to lifes great problems.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 3 #61 August 13, 2009 Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #62 August 13, 2009 Quoted123 Yeah sorry abou that, I'm an engineer and we engineers are always trying to find mechanical solutions to lifes great problems. At 7 jumps, perhaps you might put aside the idea of building a better mousetrap and focus instead on being a better mouse. Students flare high. It happens and it's why students are put on large, forgiving canopies. The overwhelming majority don't break themselves - so take this as a learning opportunity to figure out why you did. What did you do when you flared high? Did you hold it or let up? (What were you taught to do?) Were you prepared to PLF? Did you PLF? If you didn't, why didn't you? (What were you taught to do?)"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #63 August 13, 2009 I got hurt inpart do to an inproper PLF and jumping when i was too windy. All my fualt, 100% But I always had an issue with knowing exactly when to flare. And when the engineer came in with that little range finder I thought "Well will you look at this! What a cool little device....I wonder how I can use this?"Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,445 #64 August 13, 2009 People use altimeters now to help them decide when they should be in the pattern. Really, deep down, there's probably not a huge issue with using a rangefinder to help with flaring. However, there are a couple of very significant concerns. One is that most landing areas aren't perfectly flat, and it'd give misleading information if there were higher grass on some parts than on others, or berms, or trees and bushes, etc. Another is that it'd be too easy to use a tool like that as part of an autopilot approach to skydiving, just as some people use audible altimeters (and will probably be using the new sounding/swooping altimeters). While it helps some, it reduces the jumper's ability to deal with the variation that enters into every jump, because they're used to a machine doing it. The other problem would be that the lag time between the altitude announcement and the student's reaction could be problematic -- some students would react quickly, and others more slowly. You probably wouldn't want it to be visual, folks should be looking at where they're going to be landing. So it'd have to be audible, and then reaction/lag time enters into the equation. Overall, I could see something like that as a short-term aid for a student with problems. But an instructor with a radio would be a better aid, because they'd have skydiving judgment to go along with it. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #65 August 13, 2009 Wendy, Now I'm not sure of the model I saw but we were able to get ok reading from unmowed grass (+-/2ft). I'm not an expert in the field but from what I gather the sound waves are bouncing off the water and the rocks and not so much as the grass. Now would it work? Only if you aim it right. So if you are comming in with your feet straight down, assuming you have this little guy attached parallel with your leg then it will give you a reading. If you come in with your feet an an angle then no it will give you a faulse reading. It's just an idea, not that I can make one nor even use one at the moment. But I agree nothing is better than a good radio and a good instructor.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #66 August 13, 2009 I have an audible with canopy alarms. I actually prefer not using them. I had used them for quite a while before my helmet (containing the audible) was stolen. Having to fly my pattern without the beeps gave me more confidence. Having a tool to assist people in estimating flare height might be useful as long as the person isn't dependent on it. If it fails then you could be in real trouble (sound familiar?). Your reaction time will also play a large part in what altitude is appropriate. Regarding single or two stage flares, I've done both depending on the situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dks13827 3 #67 August 13, 2009 a good landing on this video http://www.vimeo.com/5534327 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #68 August 14, 2009 In all my jumps I never had anything that soft! His forward speed coming in was easily 1/4th of what I had. My god what am I / was I doing wrong?Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #69 August 14, 2009 Quote Quote What works for me (but for you it might be different) is to 'plane out' using only the slightest toggle input (shoulder level) and then gently finish the flare as far as my arms will go down. Again, do not do it this exact way! Find out together with the canopy coach what works for you and stick to that. He'll see you land, I don't Is it really a 2-stage flare? Since getting off radio, I've always done more of a "continuous" flare. There's no real distinction between when I'm planing out and when I'm bleeding speed. Would it be better if I tried to divide it into these two moves? I would like to lose more horizontal speed in low winds, but don't really know how or if it's possible. Should I flare more aggressively at first to level off, then pause, and work on the second stage to lose more forward speed? I've had great landings, but usually have to run it out. Nothing wrong with running out landings. Your forward speed relative to the ground depends on the windspeed and obviously you'll go faster landing down- or crosswind. Like I said, what I described works for me on my current canopy. I only went into that much detail because the OP flies the same type and size of canopy, albeit at a slightly lower WL. OTOH I've never flown a Sabre2, so I cannot go and comment on how to land it. Point in case, landing that PD160R in the manner I first described was nasty. There is no 'magic solution' to fix your landings - the 'best' way to flare is different for every canopy, every wingload and perhaps even every person. Get video of your landings and evaluate them with your instructors - that way you'll learn much more than anyone can tell you online. Sounds like a cop out, doesn't it?Edit: markup"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 80 #70 August 14, 2009 Quote ...jumping when i was too windy. Well, there is your problem! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 3 #71 August 14, 2009 A good landing [check] after the landing he is good (unharmed, walking). A good technique ... do you really want to promote that way of landing/flaring to other students as a good techique that they'll use on sport canopies and common used WL? He seems to be light 150 pounds on something like 280 or 300 sqft.Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #72 August 14, 2009 He seems to be light 150 pounds on something like 280 or 300 sqft. d123 Mate I'm a solid 185lbs naked and I was landing a well work 260. Do you think if I were to ask the DZ to put me on a 280 or bigger I too can have solf landings like this if I flared at the right height. No disrespect to any one, but swooping is not my thing. I have a bike for that. I just wish to come down soft and safe.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 3 #73 August 14, 2009 Dude, After I've broke my ankle I've upsize to 230 and I had great landings and I've did more with my canopy. You're going to learn faster and you'll downsize when you're ready!!! Upsizing is a GREAT idea with only downsize:you're going to ground yourself more because of the high winds. When you're going backwards is really no fun (think scary)! Does it makes any sense to you what I'm saying? Edit to add: Ignore the 230 number. It's just a number that made sense in my frame of reference. The idea is upsize! When you get back ask for the bigger wing they got and ask them to tell you when the high wind is too much Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #74 August 14, 2009 d123, Here is the gig....I like my life. I don't mind only jumping in the morning and in the evening when the winds are nice and light. I'm A-OK with that. Just like I'm AOK with not doing 140mph on the highway with my bike. I'm a freefall junky, I just want soft landings. Soft safe and free of any snapping sounds.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 3 #75 August 14, 2009 Then my friend your next step is clear ... and near Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
