darkwing 5 #26 December 5, 2006 Quote I have not much experience but if my control range goes from my ears to the middle of my chest then I will take a Sabre 2 where I have a longer control range and the canopy doesn't stall rapidly like the pilot.Quote You must have jumped a mutant Pilot. My Pilot 168 only stalled if I took a wrap of the control lines around my hands. It had a great control range. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #27 December 5, 2006 QuoteI have not much experience but if my control range goes from my ears to the middle of my chest then I will take a Sabre 2 where I have a longer control range and the canopy doesn't stall rapidly like the pilot. I can fly my Pilot150 in full brakes as long as I want without stall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites deathtrap 0 #28 December 5, 2006 Good for you that you have so many jumps on that canopy so you know that they are 2 different canopies, is like comparing the Katana to a Velocity, or the Stiletto to a Katana. they are different wing designs. All depend on the Wing loading to.A Sabre 2 is more predictable to stall than the Pilot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #29 December 5, 2006 Quote All depend on the Wing loading to.A Sabre 2 is more predictable to stall than the Pilot. Sure. If you can stall just one of them by toggles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justchrisdsp 0 #30 December 5, 2006 how many jumps do you have on pilots and what sizes, i jumped a 117 loaded at 2.3 just to see how the flight would be, put about 20 jumps on it, thing never even came close to stalling, and that is the type of loading that you would think would lead to an easily stalled canopy, you might have been jumping a pilot where someone had extremely shortened the brake lines or maybe you got one that was out of trim, but i have put nearly 500 jumps on various sized pilots and i have never had one radically stall on me, in fact i have only had one stall on me and that was my 188 that i took a wrap in the brakes on and held for a very long time to get it to do that, i will agree that trying to lump the sabre2 and the pilot in the same category is a bit misleading, they are 2 different canopies built by 2 different companies, but they are marketed to the same crowd, the newer jumper and the jumper that needs a predictable everyday all-around canopy. so they will always draw comparison. so i repeat what i said earlier, if i am in the market for a semi-elliptical i will go with the pilot first and foremost The only bad skydive is your last! chris "sonic wookie" harwell Piedra-belluda-roja Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #31 December 5, 2006 Out of those several hundred jumps I have never had one "stall rapidly." The larger sizes won't stall at all at my (and Amy's) loading without taking a wrap. You can force them to stall if you try, and they recover like any other canopy. Stall break is a bit less violent than, say, that on a Nitro. Quote Agreed, I've never had a Pilot stall on me when I wasn't forcing it to and even then I had to WORK to get it to stallHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites apollard24 0 #32 December 5, 2006 Well after reading and debating between the two I decided to order the Pilot today for myself. Thanks Karl for all your help! Breathe out so I can breathe you in... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #33 December 5, 2006 Congrats. You are going to love it, and the service you get from Karl will be top notch!!! He recently offered to send me a new D-Bag and pilot chute on Aerodyne's dime in order to try to sort out some stuff for me. I don't know many other companies who would do that for the third owner of a rig that is over two years old!!!! "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kaerodyne 0 #34 December 5, 2006 Amanda Your more than welcome. And thanks for FlyingAerodyne, again when choosing a new canopy to replace your Triathlon. I would wish you soft opening, great flights and tippy toe landing, but that already included in the design of the Pilot. Now all i need to do is get you to teach me how to sitfly Blue Skies Karl Meyer Sales Representative Aerodyne Research Office: 1 813 891 6300 Mobile: 1 813 841 2149 karl@flyaerodyne.com www.flyaerodyne.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EAerodyne 0 #35 December 6, 2006 Rick, I am confused as to where I said anything negative about PD or hybrid canopies. My company builds a variety of hybrid canopies, such as the Triahtlon hybrid and the A2. Hybrid canopies have a place in the market place and as you mentioned are easier to pack.... they don't do very well when getting to high wingloadings and or small surface area's. I still stand by my comment some years back that a hybrid canopy is a better solution than a canopy built entirely from 0-3 cfm. I at no point in my response, say anything negative about hybrid's other than they should be cheaper as half of the fabric used costs half as much as zero porosity. (have a look at the price of an A2 vs a Sigma for example in price comparisson) I didn't back stab anyone .. I merely stated the facts that a Pilot and a Silhouette are not closely the same even in physical properties... let alone flight charachteristics. I have the utmost respect for PD, their products and their staff, they are a top notch company, and i still have a lot of friends and aquaintances there. Regarding the Pilot you managed to stall at chest level, I suggest you get that canopy back to us for an inspection or line change, as there is obviously something seriously wrong with it... they don't stall that easily. Most of all Rick, read my thread again bud, I never dissed PD, or hybrid canopies...I clearly offered a direct comparisson to a silhouette, which it had been suggested was the equivalent canopy to the Pilot. Kind regards Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #36 December 6, 2006 QuoteI didn't back stab anyone .. I merely stated the facts that a Pilot and a Silhouette are not closely the same even in physical properties... let alone flight charachteristics. QuoteRick, I am confused as to where I said anything negative about PD or hybrid canopies. That's the nature of the beast when posting on DZ.com, didn't you know that!?!? You could post a message to your best friend sayin, "hey bro i haven't seen ya in a while, I missed ya", and someone would reply with, "that's f*ckin' Bullsh@t, what the hell is your problem with Icarus canopies?" History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #37 December 6, 2006 QuoteWell after reading and debating between the two I decided to order the Pilot today for myself. Thanks Karl for all your help! Of course a Pilot would be better than a....ick...7-cell. (but I want a Sabre2 for my next...whenever that is). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites deathtrap 0 #38 December 6, 2006 None of that stuff represents myself. I left my acct logged in and some people thought it would be funny to make an ass out of me online. Now you can bet everyone thinks less of them. Oh, on the bright side they now owe lots of beer! Sorry for their crap. Lesson learned... LOG OUT! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hurrikanejae 0 #39 October 3, 2007 that's soo cool to see how floridian skydivers respond to people in our community. I love our family Blue Skies Filled with Birdies, Jeremy R. Marston Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hackish 8 #40 October 3, 2007 I too have been looking for a good beginner-intermediate canopy. I was drawn to PD only because the student rig made my PD flew the nicest of all the ones I tried. I think it's nice to see companies involved in the community. Now I'll have to see what else is offered even though nobody around me owns anything made by aerodyne -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites headcase 0 #41 October 10, 2007 Quote You're not the only one that feels that way!!! My first jumps were on a hornet, and I would buy one in a heart beat if some one had a new one in a back room somewhere. Try calling Ralph Hatfield in Oregon (the "Call Ralph!" guy), he's still advertising for Hornets. I demoed some Sabre2's and wasn't terribly impressed. I've been jumping a 210 Pilot for the last two years and absolutely love it. The openings are every bit as soft as a Spectre and I've NEVER had a canopy with a longer glide. Sometimes in light to zero winds I have to get on my fronts to keep from overshooting the landing zone. Ditto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites UDSkyJunkie 0 #42 October 10, 2007 My opinion (lots of jumps on Sabre2, minimal on Pilot). Sabre2 advantages: - More lift = MUCH better glide in brakes, slower stall speed, can really "float" it to stay up high and out of traffic - Longer control range (possibly more forgiving of uneven toggles on landing, harder to stall) - Lighter front riser pressure (if you like big, diving turns up high or want to swoop later) - Longer recovery arc (really only an advantage if you want to learn to swoop later) Pilot advantages: - Cleaner openings - short control range (fast and crisp response to toggle input if you want to whip the canopy around up high). - shorter recovery arc (could save your ass if you do something stupid near the ground) - loses less altitude in turns They are both great canopies... which you pick depends more on what kind of flying you want to do than which is "better" overall. You might check out a Safire2 as well. Spectre & equivalents are good too. You sacrifice some performance (speed, glide ratio, and swoop ability), but gain the ability to land it on a dime. Also openings are amazing and turn rate is faster than any 9-cell, while losing less altitude."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites micduran 0 #43 October 11, 2007 Currently I jump a Spectre 135. I have a demo Pilot 132 in my rig now that I will be jumping tomorrow. Thanks Sandy and Karl. Saturday I will be jumping a demo Sabre2 135. Thanks Ian. It will be nice being able to jump both in the same weekend to really compare them.Be patient with the faults of others; they have to be patient with yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot90 0 #44 October 11, 2007 Is the pilot made state side or imported? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites swoopgod 0 #45 October 12, 2007 My pilot was built in South Africa. It opens and lands very nice, however, I feel that I was decieved by Aerodyne!! The Pilot is advertised as an all Zero-porosity canopy, when in fact, the ribs are really F-111. They pretty much told me "oh-well, sorry". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #46 October 12, 2007 QuoteMy pilot was built in South Africa. It opens and lands very nice, however, I feel that I was decieved by Aerodyne!! The Pilot is advertised as an all Zero-porosity canopy, when in fact, the ribs are really F-111. They pretty much told me "oh-well, sorry". And the important parts (top and bottom skin) are ZP....your point being?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darkwing 5 #47 October 12, 2007 QuoteMy pilot was built in South Africa. It opens and lands very nice, however, I feel that I was decieved by Aerodyne!! The Pilot is advertised as an all Zero-porosity canopy, when in fact, the ribs are really F-111. They pretty much told me "oh-well, sorry". Well, given that they cut big holes in the ribs anyway, why do you feel cheated by the non-ZP ribs? It is likely that the rib fabric has superior strength in some ways to the ZP. I have long thought that a strong, high porosity fabric would be the best for internal ribs, eliminating the need for cross ports. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jkbernstein 1 #48 October 12, 2007 I'd pretty much agree with Jared's assessment (which may be due in part to the fact that we're talking about the same canopies - he demo'ed my Pilot 117 and I tried out his Sabre2 120), but I'd add two things: - I like the landings on the Sabre2 a little better than the Pilot. I thought that the issue was that my brake lines were too long, but even having shortened them, it seems like the Sabre's flare is a little stronger. It "shuts down" (I can't think of a better way to put that) easier, while the Pilot wants to keep gliding. - Pilots pack huge. The advertised pack volume of a Pilot 117 is 347 cu. in., which is somewhere between the volume of a Sabre2 135 and and 150. From personal experience, that's accurate. This may not affect performance, but it makes a big difference in other ways, like the size of your container. (My current dilemma is whether to order a Micron which is a better size for my body, or one that fits my canopy. A difficult decision, 'cause I looooooove my Pilot. ) May the (relative) wind take your troubles away... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites UDSkyJunkie 0 #49 October 12, 2007 QuoteWell, given that they cut big holes in the ribs anyway, why do you feel cheated by the non-ZP ribs? It is likely that the rib fabric has superior strength in some ways to the ZP. I have long thought that a strong, high porosity fabric would be the best for internal ribs, eliminating the need for cross ports. Agreed that F-111 for ribs isn't going to affect flight performance, and the extra porosity may be part of why it opens cleaner, but... why would it have superior strength to ZP? I could see a possible reduction in rib/seam stress, but that's not quite the same."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darkwing 5 #50 October 15, 2007 QuoteAgreed that F-111 for ribs isn't going to affect flight performance, and the extra porosity may be part of why it opens cleaner, but... why would it have superior strength to ZP? I could see a possible reduction in rib/seam stress, but that's not quite the same. According to PD the high speed tear strength of ZP is notably inferior to F-111 type fabric. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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phoenixlpr 0 #27 December 5, 2006 QuoteI have not much experience but if my control range goes from my ears to the middle of my chest then I will take a Sabre 2 where I have a longer control range and the canopy doesn't stall rapidly like the pilot. I can fly my Pilot150 in full brakes as long as I want without stall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deathtrap 0 #28 December 5, 2006 Good for you that you have so many jumps on that canopy so you know that they are 2 different canopies, is like comparing the Katana to a Velocity, or the Stiletto to a Katana. they are different wing designs. All depend on the Wing loading to.A Sabre 2 is more predictable to stall than the Pilot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #29 December 5, 2006 Quote All depend on the Wing loading to.A Sabre 2 is more predictable to stall than the Pilot. Sure. If you can stall just one of them by toggles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justchrisdsp 0 #30 December 5, 2006 how many jumps do you have on pilots and what sizes, i jumped a 117 loaded at 2.3 just to see how the flight would be, put about 20 jumps on it, thing never even came close to stalling, and that is the type of loading that you would think would lead to an easily stalled canopy, you might have been jumping a pilot where someone had extremely shortened the brake lines or maybe you got one that was out of trim, but i have put nearly 500 jumps on various sized pilots and i have never had one radically stall on me, in fact i have only had one stall on me and that was my 188 that i took a wrap in the brakes on and held for a very long time to get it to do that, i will agree that trying to lump the sabre2 and the pilot in the same category is a bit misleading, they are 2 different canopies built by 2 different companies, but they are marketed to the same crowd, the newer jumper and the jumper that needs a predictable everyday all-around canopy. so they will always draw comparison. so i repeat what i said earlier, if i am in the market for a semi-elliptical i will go with the pilot first and foremost The only bad skydive is your last! chris "sonic wookie" harwell Piedra-belluda-roja Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #31 December 5, 2006 Out of those several hundred jumps I have never had one "stall rapidly." The larger sizes won't stall at all at my (and Amy's) loading without taking a wrap. You can force them to stall if you try, and they recover like any other canopy. Stall break is a bit less violent than, say, that on a Nitro. Quote Agreed, I've never had a Pilot stall on me when I wasn't forcing it to and even then I had to WORK to get it to stallHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites apollard24 0 #32 December 5, 2006 Well after reading and debating between the two I decided to order the Pilot today for myself. Thanks Karl for all your help! Breathe out so I can breathe you in... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #33 December 5, 2006 Congrats. You are going to love it, and the service you get from Karl will be top notch!!! He recently offered to send me a new D-Bag and pilot chute on Aerodyne's dime in order to try to sort out some stuff for me. I don't know many other companies who would do that for the third owner of a rig that is over two years old!!!! "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kaerodyne 0 #34 December 5, 2006 Amanda Your more than welcome. And thanks for FlyingAerodyne, again when choosing a new canopy to replace your Triathlon. I would wish you soft opening, great flights and tippy toe landing, but that already included in the design of the Pilot. Now all i need to do is get you to teach me how to sitfly Blue Skies Karl Meyer Sales Representative Aerodyne Research Office: 1 813 891 6300 Mobile: 1 813 841 2149 karl@flyaerodyne.com www.flyaerodyne.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EAerodyne 0 #35 December 6, 2006 Rick, I am confused as to where I said anything negative about PD or hybrid canopies. My company builds a variety of hybrid canopies, such as the Triahtlon hybrid and the A2. Hybrid canopies have a place in the market place and as you mentioned are easier to pack.... they don't do very well when getting to high wingloadings and or small surface area's. I still stand by my comment some years back that a hybrid canopy is a better solution than a canopy built entirely from 0-3 cfm. I at no point in my response, say anything negative about hybrid's other than they should be cheaper as half of the fabric used costs half as much as zero porosity. (have a look at the price of an A2 vs a Sigma for example in price comparisson) I didn't back stab anyone .. I merely stated the facts that a Pilot and a Silhouette are not closely the same even in physical properties... let alone flight charachteristics. I have the utmost respect for PD, their products and their staff, they are a top notch company, and i still have a lot of friends and aquaintances there. Regarding the Pilot you managed to stall at chest level, I suggest you get that canopy back to us for an inspection or line change, as there is obviously something seriously wrong with it... they don't stall that easily. Most of all Rick, read my thread again bud, I never dissed PD, or hybrid canopies...I clearly offered a direct comparisson to a silhouette, which it had been suggested was the equivalent canopy to the Pilot. Kind regards Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #36 December 6, 2006 QuoteI didn't back stab anyone .. I merely stated the facts that a Pilot and a Silhouette are not closely the same even in physical properties... let alone flight charachteristics. QuoteRick, I am confused as to where I said anything negative about PD or hybrid canopies. That's the nature of the beast when posting on DZ.com, didn't you know that!?!? You could post a message to your best friend sayin, "hey bro i haven't seen ya in a while, I missed ya", and someone would reply with, "that's f*ckin' Bullsh@t, what the hell is your problem with Icarus canopies?" History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #37 December 6, 2006 QuoteWell after reading and debating between the two I decided to order the Pilot today for myself. Thanks Karl for all your help! Of course a Pilot would be better than a....ick...7-cell. (but I want a Sabre2 for my next...whenever that is). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites deathtrap 0 #38 December 6, 2006 None of that stuff represents myself. I left my acct logged in and some people thought it would be funny to make an ass out of me online. Now you can bet everyone thinks less of them. Oh, on the bright side they now owe lots of beer! Sorry for their crap. Lesson learned... LOG OUT! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hurrikanejae 0 #39 October 3, 2007 that's soo cool to see how floridian skydivers respond to people in our community. I love our family Blue Skies Filled with Birdies, Jeremy R. Marston Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hackish 8 #40 October 3, 2007 I too have been looking for a good beginner-intermediate canopy. I was drawn to PD only because the student rig made my PD flew the nicest of all the ones I tried. I think it's nice to see companies involved in the community. Now I'll have to see what else is offered even though nobody around me owns anything made by aerodyne -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites headcase 0 #41 October 10, 2007 Quote You're not the only one that feels that way!!! My first jumps were on a hornet, and I would buy one in a heart beat if some one had a new one in a back room somewhere. Try calling Ralph Hatfield in Oregon (the "Call Ralph!" guy), he's still advertising for Hornets. I demoed some Sabre2's and wasn't terribly impressed. I've been jumping a 210 Pilot for the last two years and absolutely love it. The openings are every bit as soft as a Spectre and I've NEVER had a canopy with a longer glide. Sometimes in light to zero winds I have to get on my fronts to keep from overshooting the landing zone. Ditto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites UDSkyJunkie 0 #42 October 10, 2007 My opinion (lots of jumps on Sabre2, minimal on Pilot). Sabre2 advantages: - More lift = MUCH better glide in brakes, slower stall speed, can really "float" it to stay up high and out of traffic - Longer control range (possibly more forgiving of uneven toggles on landing, harder to stall) - Lighter front riser pressure (if you like big, diving turns up high or want to swoop later) - Longer recovery arc (really only an advantage if you want to learn to swoop later) Pilot advantages: - Cleaner openings - short control range (fast and crisp response to toggle input if you want to whip the canopy around up high). - shorter recovery arc (could save your ass if you do something stupid near the ground) - loses less altitude in turns They are both great canopies... which you pick depends more on what kind of flying you want to do than which is "better" overall. You might check out a Safire2 as well. Spectre & equivalents are good too. You sacrifice some performance (speed, glide ratio, and swoop ability), but gain the ability to land it on a dime. Also openings are amazing and turn rate is faster than any 9-cell, while losing less altitude."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites micduran 0 #43 October 11, 2007 Currently I jump a Spectre 135. I have a demo Pilot 132 in my rig now that I will be jumping tomorrow. Thanks Sandy and Karl. Saturday I will be jumping a demo Sabre2 135. Thanks Ian. It will be nice being able to jump both in the same weekend to really compare them.Be patient with the faults of others; they have to be patient with yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot90 0 #44 October 11, 2007 Is the pilot made state side or imported? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites swoopgod 0 #45 October 12, 2007 My pilot was built in South Africa. It opens and lands very nice, however, I feel that I was decieved by Aerodyne!! The Pilot is advertised as an all Zero-porosity canopy, when in fact, the ribs are really F-111. They pretty much told me "oh-well, sorry". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #46 October 12, 2007 QuoteMy pilot was built in South Africa. It opens and lands very nice, however, I feel that I was decieved by Aerodyne!! The Pilot is advertised as an all Zero-porosity canopy, when in fact, the ribs are really F-111. They pretty much told me "oh-well, sorry". And the important parts (top and bottom skin) are ZP....your point being?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darkwing 5 #47 October 12, 2007 QuoteMy pilot was built in South Africa. It opens and lands very nice, however, I feel that I was decieved by Aerodyne!! The Pilot is advertised as an all Zero-porosity canopy, when in fact, the ribs are really F-111. They pretty much told me "oh-well, sorry". Well, given that they cut big holes in the ribs anyway, why do you feel cheated by the non-ZP ribs? It is likely that the rib fabric has superior strength in some ways to the ZP. I have long thought that a strong, high porosity fabric would be the best for internal ribs, eliminating the need for cross ports. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jkbernstein 1 #48 October 12, 2007 I'd pretty much agree with Jared's assessment (which may be due in part to the fact that we're talking about the same canopies - he demo'ed my Pilot 117 and I tried out his Sabre2 120), but I'd add two things: - I like the landings on the Sabre2 a little better than the Pilot. I thought that the issue was that my brake lines were too long, but even having shortened them, it seems like the Sabre's flare is a little stronger. It "shuts down" (I can't think of a better way to put that) easier, while the Pilot wants to keep gliding. - Pilots pack huge. The advertised pack volume of a Pilot 117 is 347 cu. in., which is somewhere between the volume of a Sabre2 135 and and 150. From personal experience, that's accurate. This may not affect performance, but it makes a big difference in other ways, like the size of your container. (My current dilemma is whether to order a Micron which is a better size for my body, or one that fits my canopy. A difficult decision, 'cause I looooooove my Pilot. ) May the (relative) wind take your troubles away... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites UDSkyJunkie 0 #49 October 12, 2007 QuoteWell, given that they cut big holes in the ribs anyway, why do you feel cheated by the non-ZP ribs? It is likely that the rib fabric has superior strength in some ways to the ZP. I have long thought that a strong, high porosity fabric would be the best for internal ribs, eliminating the need for cross ports. Agreed that F-111 for ribs isn't going to affect flight performance, and the extra porosity may be part of why it opens cleaner, but... why would it have superior strength to ZP? I could see a possible reduction in rib/seam stress, but that's not quite the same."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darkwing 5 #50 October 15, 2007 QuoteAgreed that F-111 for ribs isn't going to affect flight performance, and the extra porosity may be part of why it opens cleaner, but... why would it have superior strength to ZP? I could see a possible reduction in rib/seam stress, but that's not quite the same. According to PD the high speed tear strength of ZP is notably inferior to F-111 type fabric. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
apollard24 0 #32 December 5, 2006 Well after reading and debating between the two I decided to order the Pilot today for myself. Thanks Karl for all your help! Breathe out so I can breathe you in... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #33 December 5, 2006 Congrats. You are going to love it, and the service you get from Karl will be top notch!!! He recently offered to send me a new D-Bag and pilot chute on Aerodyne's dime in order to try to sort out some stuff for me. I don't know many other companies who would do that for the third owner of a rig that is over two years old!!!! "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kaerodyne 0 #34 December 5, 2006 Amanda Your more than welcome. And thanks for FlyingAerodyne, again when choosing a new canopy to replace your Triathlon. I would wish you soft opening, great flights and tippy toe landing, but that already included in the design of the Pilot. Now all i need to do is get you to teach me how to sitfly Blue Skies Karl Meyer Sales Representative Aerodyne Research Office: 1 813 891 6300 Mobile: 1 813 841 2149 karl@flyaerodyne.com www.flyaerodyne.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EAerodyne 0 #35 December 6, 2006 Rick, I am confused as to where I said anything negative about PD or hybrid canopies. My company builds a variety of hybrid canopies, such as the Triahtlon hybrid and the A2. Hybrid canopies have a place in the market place and as you mentioned are easier to pack.... they don't do very well when getting to high wingloadings and or small surface area's. I still stand by my comment some years back that a hybrid canopy is a better solution than a canopy built entirely from 0-3 cfm. I at no point in my response, say anything negative about hybrid's other than they should be cheaper as half of the fabric used costs half as much as zero porosity. (have a look at the price of an A2 vs a Sigma for example in price comparisson) I didn't back stab anyone .. I merely stated the facts that a Pilot and a Silhouette are not closely the same even in physical properties... let alone flight charachteristics. I have the utmost respect for PD, their products and their staff, they are a top notch company, and i still have a lot of friends and aquaintances there. Regarding the Pilot you managed to stall at chest level, I suggest you get that canopy back to us for an inspection or line change, as there is obviously something seriously wrong with it... they don't stall that easily. Most of all Rick, read my thread again bud, I never dissed PD, or hybrid canopies...I clearly offered a direct comparisson to a silhouette, which it had been suggested was the equivalent canopy to the Pilot. Kind regards Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #36 December 6, 2006 QuoteI didn't back stab anyone .. I merely stated the facts that a Pilot and a Silhouette are not closely the same even in physical properties... let alone flight charachteristics. QuoteRick, I am confused as to where I said anything negative about PD or hybrid canopies. That's the nature of the beast when posting on DZ.com, didn't you know that!?!? You could post a message to your best friend sayin, "hey bro i haven't seen ya in a while, I missed ya", and someone would reply with, "that's f*ckin' Bullsh@t, what the hell is your problem with Icarus canopies?" History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #37 December 6, 2006 QuoteWell after reading and debating between the two I decided to order the Pilot today for myself. Thanks Karl for all your help! Of course a Pilot would be better than a....ick...7-cell. (but I want a Sabre2 for my next...whenever that is). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deathtrap 0 #38 December 6, 2006 None of that stuff represents myself. I left my acct logged in and some people thought it would be funny to make an ass out of me online. Now you can bet everyone thinks less of them. Oh, on the bright side they now owe lots of beer! Sorry for their crap. Lesson learned... LOG OUT! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hurrikanejae 0 #39 October 3, 2007 that's soo cool to see how floridian skydivers respond to people in our community. I love our family Blue Skies Filled with Birdies, Jeremy R. Marston Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #40 October 3, 2007 I too have been looking for a good beginner-intermediate canopy. I was drawn to PD only because the student rig made my PD flew the nicest of all the ones I tried. I think it's nice to see companies involved in the community. Now I'll have to see what else is offered even though nobody around me owns anything made by aerodyne -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headcase 0 #41 October 10, 2007 Quote You're not the only one that feels that way!!! My first jumps were on a hornet, and I would buy one in a heart beat if some one had a new one in a back room somewhere. Try calling Ralph Hatfield in Oregon (the "Call Ralph!" guy), he's still advertising for Hornets. I demoed some Sabre2's and wasn't terribly impressed. I've been jumping a 210 Pilot for the last two years and absolutely love it. The openings are every bit as soft as a Spectre and I've NEVER had a canopy with a longer glide. Sometimes in light to zero winds I have to get on my fronts to keep from overshooting the landing zone. Ditto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #42 October 10, 2007 My opinion (lots of jumps on Sabre2, minimal on Pilot). Sabre2 advantages: - More lift = MUCH better glide in brakes, slower stall speed, can really "float" it to stay up high and out of traffic - Longer control range (possibly more forgiving of uneven toggles on landing, harder to stall) - Lighter front riser pressure (if you like big, diving turns up high or want to swoop later) - Longer recovery arc (really only an advantage if you want to learn to swoop later) Pilot advantages: - Cleaner openings - short control range (fast and crisp response to toggle input if you want to whip the canopy around up high). - shorter recovery arc (could save your ass if you do something stupid near the ground) - loses less altitude in turns They are both great canopies... which you pick depends more on what kind of flying you want to do than which is "better" overall. You might check out a Safire2 as well. Spectre & equivalents are good too. You sacrifice some performance (speed, glide ratio, and swoop ability), but gain the ability to land it on a dime. Also openings are amazing and turn rate is faster than any 9-cell, while losing less altitude."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micduran 0 #43 October 11, 2007 Currently I jump a Spectre 135. I have a demo Pilot 132 in my rig now that I will be jumping tomorrow. Thanks Sandy and Karl. Saturday I will be jumping a demo Sabre2 135. Thanks Ian. It will be nice being able to jump both in the same weekend to really compare them.Be patient with the faults of others; they have to be patient with yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #44 October 11, 2007 Is the pilot made state side or imported? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swoopgod 0 #45 October 12, 2007 My pilot was built in South Africa. It opens and lands very nice, however, I feel that I was decieved by Aerodyne!! The Pilot is advertised as an all Zero-porosity canopy, when in fact, the ribs are really F-111. They pretty much told me "oh-well, sorry". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #46 October 12, 2007 QuoteMy pilot was built in South Africa. It opens and lands very nice, however, I feel that I was decieved by Aerodyne!! The Pilot is advertised as an all Zero-porosity canopy, when in fact, the ribs are really F-111. They pretty much told me "oh-well, sorry". And the important parts (top and bottom skin) are ZP....your point being?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 5 #47 October 12, 2007 QuoteMy pilot was built in South Africa. It opens and lands very nice, however, I feel that I was decieved by Aerodyne!! The Pilot is advertised as an all Zero-porosity canopy, when in fact, the ribs are really F-111. They pretty much told me "oh-well, sorry". Well, given that they cut big holes in the ribs anyway, why do you feel cheated by the non-ZP ribs? It is likely that the rib fabric has superior strength in some ways to the ZP. I have long thought that a strong, high porosity fabric would be the best for internal ribs, eliminating the need for cross ports. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jkbernstein 1 #48 October 12, 2007 I'd pretty much agree with Jared's assessment (which may be due in part to the fact that we're talking about the same canopies - he demo'ed my Pilot 117 and I tried out his Sabre2 120), but I'd add two things: - I like the landings on the Sabre2 a little better than the Pilot. I thought that the issue was that my brake lines were too long, but even having shortened them, it seems like the Sabre's flare is a little stronger. It "shuts down" (I can't think of a better way to put that) easier, while the Pilot wants to keep gliding. - Pilots pack huge. The advertised pack volume of a Pilot 117 is 347 cu. in., which is somewhere between the volume of a Sabre2 135 and and 150. From personal experience, that's accurate. This may not affect performance, but it makes a big difference in other ways, like the size of your container. (My current dilemma is whether to order a Micron which is a better size for my body, or one that fits my canopy. A difficult decision, 'cause I looooooove my Pilot. ) May the (relative) wind take your troubles away... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #49 October 12, 2007 QuoteWell, given that they cut big holes in the ribs anyway, why do you feel cheated by the non-ZP ribs? It is likely that the rib fabric has superior strength in some ways to the ZP. I have long thought that a strong, high porosity fabric would be the best for internal ribs, eliminating the need for cross ports. Agreed that F-111 for ribs isn't going to affect flight performance, and the extra porosity may be part of why it opens cleaner, but... why would it have superior strength to ZP? I could see a possible reduction in rib/seam stress, but that's not quite the same."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 5 #50 October 15, 2007 QuoteAgreed that F-111 for ribs isn't going to affect flight performance, and the extra porosity may be part of why it opens cleaner, but... why would it have superior strength to ZP? I could see a possible reduction in rib/seam stress, but that's not quite the same. According to PD the high speed tear strength of ZP is notably inferior to F-111 type fabric. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
