Audibles and hearing damage...

[jumpdr 0]

I've just bought a L&B solo to use in my BH Mamba. I think the paperwork says it sounds at 120dB, which is easily enough to damage hearing. It sounds REALLY loud on the ground, away from my ear, so I dread to think how it will sound when it's pressed against my ear inside a helmet! I plan on wearing soft ear plugs when I use it - what do other people do?

And no 'pardon' jokes!

Skydiving is more than a sport and more than a job: skydiving is pure passion and desire which will fill a lifetime.

[kris2extreme 0]

I thought the same thing when I first got my pro-dytter.

But once it is inside the helmet under the padding, and factoring in all the noise from freefall, it puts mine at a very reasonable and comfortable volume (yet definately still loud enough that I don't miss it)

[wmw999 2,439]

I use ear plugs when I jump, and I have no problem hearing either a prodytter or a protrack (I've had both), in either a fullface or an open face helmet.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Vectracide 0]

Sometimes I don't even remember my dytters going off.....er.......what?

------------------------------

Controlled and Deliberate.....

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

which is easily enough to damage hearing.

Dont use it then.........



Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Supergeil 0]

I don't know about the Solo but the Pro-track got two settings High and Low.But mine is on high and thats not too loud.....say what

[GQ_jumper 4]

And then there are those of us who already have hearing damage and need the dytter to be as loud as possible just to hear it

Seriously though like someone else said, once it's in the helmet and you're in freefall it seems like it's just the right volume.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Babi 0]

I also think it is a bit too loud. No way can you ignore it in the air. There is a reason for it.

I don't rhink there is a setting for loudness. Any comment from the manufacturer?? Presuming they read the forum.....

[skydiverek 63]

Some L&B products allow you to choose 3 levels of loudness.

[skydiverek 63]

Alternatively, you can also use visual LED-only warnings.

[jumpdr 0]

The Solo is the redesigned Pro-Dytter, I think. There's no volume setting and you can't use the LEDs as warnings.
I appreciate that in use, with the freefall noise, it appears to be at the right level, but what concerns me is that you've still got that amount of sound energy entering your ear and that's what kills off all those little hair cells in your cochlea and makes you go deaf. Anything over 85 dB can cause damage, depending on cumulative exposure. Recommended maximum occupational exposure times are about 15 mins at 100dB, 30secs at 115dB - 120dB can pretty much cause immediate damage.

Skydiving is more than a sport and more than a job: skydiving is pure passion and desire which will fill a lifetime.

[tbrown 26]

The mere fact that an audible doesn't sound as loud in freefall doesn't mean that it's any less loud or potentially damaging right up against your ear inside a helmet. It just shows you how much other noise you're engulfed in that makes it necessary for your audible to be so loud. It has to compete.

I wear a good pair of industrial foam earplugs on every jump. I'm over fifty and have a slight loss at the high end of my hearing already, so I want to protect every bit of hearing I've still got. And I like having an audible, I think they're a good idea.

If you're wearing earplugs, you should be okay. You'll hear your audible just fine and it shouldn't be hurting your ear. You'll also be keeping a lot of engine noise and freefall noise out of your ears as well and your ears will thank you. One caution though - since you are wearing earplugs, make sure the beeper is pointed AT your ear. For a few jumps I found I wasn't hearing my audible, until I took a closer look and found the beeper side was pointed away from my ear. Point the beeper at your ear, wear the earplugs, and enjoy.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[jumpdr 0]

Absolutely, that was my plan. The Solo is slightly curved anyway, so the beeper porthole is facing in to the helmet when you put it in in the logical way round.
My career is heading towards occupational/aviation medicine, so I know a few things about noise-induced hearing loss (NIHL).
I've noticed on the plane that during take off, I have to stick my fingers in my ears, especially when I'm near the open door, as the engine noise is reflected back up from the runway. There's lots of people I know don't do that so they either don't care or their hearing's shot anyway. I think I might have to start recommending that people wear hearing protection at our DZ and trying to enforce it upon people for their own good - perhaps the BPA should put it in the Ops Manual?

Skydiving is more than a sport and more than a job: skydiving is pure passion and desire which will fill a lifetime.

[Scoop 0]

I thought about wearing ear plugs as I have some loss of high frequency sound from using air tools and grinders etc. Im only 21. I also hear that it can cause problems equalising and people have had earplugs pulled into their ear so I decided not to bother, whether thats an urban legend or not I don't know.

Then when I consider that time spent at nightclubs and in work environment is much greater than time spent in aircraft and jumping I feel I'm kinda wasting my time. If its really loud in the aircraft I just put my helmet on.

[icevideot 0]

Quote

I also think it is a bit too loud. No way can you ignore it in the air.

I hope no one really believes you can't possibly ignore (meaning not even remember it going off) these alarms. Mine happened videoing a hoola hoop dive just after sunset. Slow dive, very challenging lighting etc. I only heard the 3rd (dirt alert) alarm as I was rolling on my back to video a deployment. I can't honestly say I believe the first two didn't beep and I definitely didn't make a conscious choice to ignore them.

Attached is an image of my pro track and the date is correct the jump number is way off. I get lazy about programming them sometimes.

Anyone who thinks this could never happen to you, well I was just like you. Be safe and always be responsible for your own safety instead of assuming someone else is paying attention.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[dragon2 2]

I noticed that when I'm very busy, the first thing to go is hearing. For instance when listening for traffic jams and just about to run INTO one, damn if I hear the radio announcements anymore, so then I'm stuck in traffic without a clue as for how long I'm likely to be stuck. Same with beepers, when really busy (trying to fix a mal etc) I do NOT recall hearing my beeper. At all.

Don't know if it's just me though

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Scoop 0]

In times of high stress your body tends to get tunnel vision and focus on the immediate threat in front of you so it makes sense that you lose awareness of other secondary, but very important factors (like altitude). I guess thats why its so drummed into us to be altitude aware, to make a concious effort to know where you are so when incidents like this occur you have a better training to fall back on, almost subconciously as its become habbit

[tbrown 26]

Quote

I thought about wearing ear plugs as I have some loss of high frequency sound from using air tools and grinders etc. Im only 21. I also hear that it can cause problems equalising and people have had earplugs pulled into their ear so I decided not to bother, whether thats an urban legend or not I don't know.

Then when I consider that time spent at nightclubs and in work environment is much greater than time spent in aircraft and jumping I feel I'm kinda wasting my time. If its really loud in the aircraft I just put my helmet on.

I hear you pal (just kidding...). I've spent many years working with or around rivet guns myself - and ALWAYS wore ear protection for that too. Rock & roll, or whatever you kids are listening to now just keeps getting louder and I actually had a problem at an outdoor concert a few years ago where one of the Grateful Dead's former drummers actually blew out one of my eardrums (what an asshole, it really didn't need to be THAT loud). Bill Clinton blamed rock'n roll when he had to get a hearing aid.

Anyway, they ALL need ear protection. I wear earplugs whenever I'm in a machine shop environment, I wear them if live music is too loud, and I wear them for every skydive. It all adds up and the engines and roar of freefall will take their toll if you let them. 21 is too young to be losing your hearing. I'm 51 want to hold onto every bit of hearing I've got, because whatever range you've lost is gone and won't come back. If you don't start doing something about it NOW, it will just keep getting worse.

The bit about equalizing air pressure is all bullshit. I don't use the rubber kind of earplugs, but I know several people who do and they tell me they have no problemo with them. I use the foam kind, which "breathe" and have no more than the normal pressure change you'd expect after dropping two miles in a minute.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[hjumper33 0]

Another thing that should be brought up is the type of helmet being used. The padding in my mindwarp makes it incredibly comfortable and incredibly quiet. I can hear my audible really well but I dont know how much I would like it if I had it in a pro tech and my audible was strapped basically straight to my ear.

[wmw999 2,439]

I also wear foam plugs on every jump with no problem whatsoever. I'll jump without them if I have to (e.g. lose them), but I really prefer it. Among other things, I focus better. I used to use a pro-tec with the pro-dytter inside the ear hole, and was able to hear it just fine.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jedeisurf 0]

If you think it is too loud don't use it. Today we have way too many jumpers that won't jump without a add or audible alti what a bunch of whimps.When I got my first audio it was because I coulden't afford an AAD 10years later I still don't need one, and don't use an audio alti,I use my eyes and my internal time clock,so far so good.
David

[gonzalesna 0]

Quote

Absolutely, that was my plan. The Solo is slightly curved anyway, so the beeper porthole is facing in to the helmet when you put it in in the logical way round.
My career is heading towards occupational/aviation medicine, so I know a few things about noise-induced hearing loss (NIHL).
I've noticed on the plane that during take off, I have to stick my fingers in my ears, especially when I'm near the open door, as the engine noise is reflected back up from the runway. There's lots of people I know don't do that so they either don't care or their hearing's shot anyway. I think I might have to start recommending that people wear hearing protection at our DZ and trying to enforce it upon people for their own good - perhaps the BPA should put it in the Ops Manual?

Personally, I think we should be entitled to our own opinion as far as hearing protection in the aircraft and freefall. Seatbelts are one thing... they save lives, but requiring people to use earplugs is quite another. We can only go so far with requirements before it becomes a hand-holding trip from takeoff to touchdown. Laws for "the good of everyone" are becoming more and more common. I feel that we need to allow people to make mistakes throughout life or else the babysitting of other full grown adults will continue to get worse over time. I'm not putting down your reccommendation to others about hearing protection, just stating my thoughts on trying to make it another requirement to jump. I for one don't have any issues with sound during any portion of the trip.

I do, however have some hearing loss (another young buck at age 22) due to my activities as a young adult and my occupation. I'm active duty in the Marine Corps, and when we do our annual rifle score qualifications, we're required to wear hearing protection. I, unfortunately, need to remove one of my two earplugs when firing though due to my poor state of hearing. At the center of the shooting line is the designated centerman who gives all commands such as commence firing, and most importantly, cease fire. In order to be able to hear him, I need to take out one of my earplugs. It's not something I want to do, but it's much more of a safety hazard to leave them in and continue firing when everyone needs to stop for some reason. (Let's just say someone pulling targets for some reason stands up into view of the shooters. Definately bad news... especially around Marines.) Sorry for making this so long, but I just wanted to make a point that sometimes we need to break rules to heed more important ones (i.e. hearing your audi) and sometimes we need to make strong suggestions instead of rules and laws.

OK, I'm done... I'm going to go ice down my fingers now from all this key tapping...

Some people refrain from beating a dead horse. Personally, I find a myriad of entertainment value when beating it until it becomes a horse-smoothie.

[jumpdr 0]

I, like yourself, do get annoyed at the 'nanny state' mentality and the hand-holding that goes on. What I was suggesting was more making people aware of the dangers of noise exposure in the aircraft and in freefall and letting them make an informed choice. People might know it it's loud, but they might not know that they could be seriously damaging their hearing and if they did, might think differently about their actions.

It's true that once you have some hearing loss, you then need to expose yourself to louder noises in order to hear, but it then becomes a vicious circle. If at 22 you already have NIHL, you should be doing everything you can to preserve what hearing function you have left. Exposing yourself to the noise from range work is just going to make things worse. If someone in the British Army has hearing that has deteriorated beyond a certain level, we'll be recommending they use double ear protection when shooting, be exposed to as little shooting as possible (mandatory tests only) and have regular check ups. If it gets so bad, they'll be downgraded and their activities restricted for their own protection.

My thoughts were, from a jumping point of view, to have a big box of ear plugs at manifest and warning signs up, but allow people to make their own choice as to whether they use them or not.

Skydiving is more than a sport and more than a job: skydiving is pure passion and desire which will fill a lifetime.

[Scoop 0]

Is it possible that NIHL can recover to a certain degree? I ask as having worked in a noisy environment for a long time then working in a quiter environment I scored better on my hearing tests with less noticeable loss of high frequency sound. Either that or different environment where tests conducted, familiarity with test procedure etc

1st test I downed tools, stepped out of workshop and more or less stepped straight into booth.

2nd test was on a scheduled day off for medical for new job so hadn't been subject to loud noise that day.

[jumpdr 0]

You do get some loss of hearing in the short term from exposure to loud noise which does recover (think standing next to the speakers at a rock concert - your ears will ring for the next 2 days, but after that, they'll get a bit better). It's repeated exposure over periods of time which causes permanent damage and it often comes on insidiously. It's caused by the high volumes killing off the little hair cells which respond to vibrations in the inner ear. These don't grow back. Once they're gone, that's it.
There's some more information here

Skydiving is more than a sport and more than a job: skydiving is pure passion and desire which will fill a lifetime.