Skydiving Instructors lack of benefits/insurance-Koji

[bigbearfng 18]

I know this has been kicked around before and it's why I'm posting it here instead of elsewhere.
It just really sucks that instructors are "independant contractors" and don't have benefits or insurance from work.
I'm sorry but it seems like a kick in their faces from the employers.
I know that there's no easy solution but it sure would be great if a brainstormin session could help even a little bit.
I'll be droppin off a few hundred at manifest for Koji this week and I'm planning on con't to donate every month, and I have to encourage all Perris locals to do the same-just give what you can.
I realize I'm worked up about his situation right now but I've always thought that it sucked for them not to have any benefits etc!
I'm ignorant on how plans work for at least health ins, so does anyone in the know have suggestions??????
Any ideas on workable solutions for work comp etc?????

[PhreeZone 20]

You can sign up for independent insurance benifits for about $100 a month, less then that for major injury insurance only. Skydiving instructors are by far not the only group out there that works as independent contractors.

Workers comp usually only applies to employees, it is the responcibility of independent contractors to cover the loss of benifits that they will not recieve compared to if they are employees.

I know how hard it is for some people to decide if they should spend the $100 on insurance or if they should get food for the month. But I have also seen the medical bills that are caused by injuries in the sport. $13,000 for a broken leg, over $500,000 for a broken pelvis, femur and heart surgery, $30,000 for a femur and ICU trip. Insurance is cheap compared to those bills.

I give what I can when someone gets hurt, but I am also glad to hear the person usually had insurance so they own like $2500 and thats it or less.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[pash 0]

I would say that, in general, I am anti-union. I work in sales in the telecommunications industry and worked through a Verizon strike several years back. Our business slowed.

However, I believe that when unions were created, it was due to children being used for labor and employees having limbs amputated due to machinery and bad working conditions.

I would support a skydiving union if there isn't one already... I don't think most people looking to getting into skydiving are dettered only or primarily by cost. Increasing the cost to the consumer to support the backbone of the skydiving industry would be wholehearteadly acceptable by me.

And by union I don't mean "pain in the ass union." I would just agree with added personal security for one of the riskiest jobs on the planet. Don't airborne soldiers make more jumping from planes than when they're not?

jason

[popsjumper 2]

Oh great...a union...I can't think of a better way to screw things up.

Both you guys appear to think that skydiving employers force instructors into the job.

A job is offered, you take it or leave it, dudes.
As mobile as the work-force market is, it's easy enough for any full-time employee to move on down the line to the job that pays more.
(Excepting, of course, those part-time instructors who have other local employment and families.)

I would fight unionization with all my resources.
Sound like a "company man"? No, I would love to see instructors paid more but unionization is not the way to go...I'm surprised to see you saying these things after going through the Verizon thing. Who "won" and what did they "win" for all the trouble? Your freakin' customers were the ones who LOST.

Sometimes a union IS the answer (child labor laws, job safety issues, etc.) but not here.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[grue 1]

gee thanks. Make it even more of an expensive sport. Go ahead and unionize... enjoy it when the only people jumping are doctors, lawyers, and professional athletes.

More expensive jumps = less jumpers, don't fool yourself. I love this sport more than just about anything, and it's already very very borderline in terms of costs. If my jump tickets go up $5 (or more?)/jump because I'm suddenly paying for someone's health insurance, I'm gonna have to jump less, or not jump at all.

Fuck that shit. If you guys don't want to take the job because you don't get health insurance, someone will. This isn't an industry vital to humanity, so there's not a lot of money in it. Health insurance is for cooks, police officers, doctors, architects, and other people who have jobs necessary to society. Sorry, but "training people jumping out of airplanes for shits and giggles" isn't one of those.

Then again, maybe you can have free insurance, but you have to pay for your "work" jumps. How's that sound?

Oh, and I'm sure airborne soldiers make more money jumping than not, but they have the biggest money wasters in the world backing them: Governments.


additional edit: Yes, it does suck when people get hurt, but health insurance isn't the most expensive thing in the world if you shop around. I was paying about $80/mo before I left the US through Blue Cross Blue Shield.

cavete terrae.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

We have talked about this before here.If someone is a full time instructor at a full time dropzone(there aren't many).They can probably afford insurance more than me.Most however only call themselves full time instructors because they skydive on the weekend and are too lazy to go out and get a real job through the week.Just because you love something and thats all you want to do does not necessarily make it feasibly.If you want all of the perks of a job go get one.

[Gawain 0]

While I am not an instructor, I cannot imagine it any other way than as a true "labor of love".

Independent contractors in just about any business are not offered insurance, and in some cases, in some far more dangerous activities.

That said, there are insurance carriers that offer a-la-carte type service. These products continue to evolve and maybe there will be a "coverage by jump" option some day.

Having said that, I really hope this "entitlement" attitude doesn't permeate the skydiving community. Not that I'm part of the "shut-up-and-jump" crowd either.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[tetra316 0]

That's exactly what I did, my insurance costs only $100 a month and I'm a poor skydiving college student. I thought about it for a while and decided it wasn't worth jumping without insurance even if it means I make a few jumps less a month. Chances are nothing will ever happen but if it does I would be screwed without insurance and I'm not willing to take that chance.

[NWFlyer 2]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if you can't afford insurance, you can't afford to skydive. For about 8 months I jumped while I wasn't working. As soon as I left my job I bought individual insurance. Never had to use it, but I wouldn't have jumped if it weren't there.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[PhreeZone 20]

That is the same situation my GF is in. She was sitting with out insurance and we actually were ready to cancel our vacation plans until we were able to get her covered. If you are willing to get major injury insurance only you can get the price down to under 50 a month. If you need to have Dr. visits covered too then its like $100. If you can't afford that and you spend all day hurling at the Earth at 120 mph then I'd see where in your budget your money is going and adjust the budget to cover it.

I was with out insurance for little bit a few years ago so I hung the rig up until I could get covered again.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[rehmwa 2]

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It just really sucks that instructors are "independant contractors" and don't have benefits or insurance from work.
I'm sorry but it seems like a kick in their faces from the employers.

"Independent contractors" ARE their "employers"

So by your note, they are kicking themselves in the face.

"Independent contractors" need to arrange for their own insurance.

Perhaps a way to do this would be to organize a cooperative where they can approach insurance companies and leverage their numbers to get better deals on insurance. This is much better than forming a union and trying to force the (regular jumpers via the) DZOs to cover their care.

It's one idea.

Nice of you to contribute to Koji's fund.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[livendive 8]

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That is the same situation my GF is in. She was sitting with out insurance and we actually were ready to cancel our vacation plans until we were able to get her covered. If you are willing to get major injury insurance only you can get the price down to under 50 a month. If you need to have Dr. visits covered too then its like $100. If you can't afford that and you spend all day hurling at the Earth at 120 mph then I'd see where in your budget your money is going and adjust the budget to cover it.

I was with out insurance for little bit a few years ago so I hung the rig up until I could get covered again.

I didn't realize privately purchased health insurance was so cheap. I'm paying $170/month for my daughter's and my medical coverage (more for dental, accidental death & dismemberment, and short-term disability). Seems reasonable, but that's through my "real" employer (being my own employer on the weekends.) I'd have guessed privately purchasing such insurance would run me a LOT more. When I was between jobs and looking at COBRA, I think it was over $700/month. The current tax change proposed by Bush has resulted in a bit of media focus on medical insurance costs...CNN ran an article that said the average policy costs around $11,400/year (most of that payed by the employers).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Douva 0]

Nobody takes a job as a skydiving instructor because it's the only work he or she can find. Like other forms of self-employment, working as a skydiving instructor is a choice, and like other forms of self-employment, you make some sacrifices for the freedom of being self-employed. I don't see any need to attract more instructors. In fact, at most of the drop zones I've visited, there seems to be an abundance of rating holders. Passing the cost of instructor health insurance on to jumpers would decrease the total number of jumps made (basic high school economics--supply and demand) and hurt a lot of already struggling DZ's.

A person does not have to put his or her life on hold simply because he or she doesn't have health insurance. There are about nine million Americans who are chronically without health insurance, and the vast majority of them are not bankrupted by injuries. Being without health insurance is not the best scenario, but it is manageable. Hospitals cannot refuse treatment to a seriously injured person, and hospitals must work out payment plans with people who cannot afford their medical bills. Also, although bankruptcy is not an ideal option, this is exactly why bankruptcy laws exist, to prevent people form being ruined by debt they cannot pay. Too many people put themselves into bad financial situations (i.e., credit card debt) in order to pay $100 or more per month for health insurance, because they're afraid of putting themselves into a bad financial situation if they should be injured or become ill. What is the logic in that? As for people making the decision between recreational activities and health insurance, that's a personal decision, but I'd be hesitant to suggest there's one answer that is right for everybody.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[wildcard451 0]

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Nobody takes a job as a skydiving instructor because it's the only work he or she can find. Like other forms of self-employment, working as a skydiving instructor is a choice, and like other forms of self-employment, you make some sacrifices for the freedom of being self-employed. I don't see any need to attract more instructors. In fact, at most of the drop zones I've visited, there seems to be an abundance of rating holders. Passing the cost of instructor health insurance on to jumpers would decrease the total number of jumps made (basic high school economics--supply and demand) and hurt a lot of already struggling DZ's.

A person does not have to put his or her life on hold simply because he or she doesn't have health insurance. There are about nine million Americans who are chronically without health insurance, and the vast majority of them are not bankrupted by injuries. Being without health insurance is not the best scenario, but it is manageable. Hospitals cannot refuse treatment to a seriously injured person, and hospitals must work out payment plans with people who cannot afford their medical bills. Also, although bankruptcy is not an ideal option, this is exactly why bankruptcy laws exist, to prevent people form being ruined by debt they cannot pay. Too many people put themselves into bad financial situations (i.e., credit card debt) in order to pay $100 or more per month for health insurance, because they're afraid of putting themselves into a bad financial situation if they should be injured or become ill. What is the logic in that? As for people making the decision between recreational activities and health insurance, that's a personal decision, but I'd be hesitant to suggest there's one answer that is right for everybody.

You want to go out and pay and have your fun but you don't wanna foot the bill when you get broken to pay me for fixing you? And you aren't willing to chip into the insurance that will pay me for fixing you? All because there exist all these ways to get out of personal responsibility for your actions.

I'd like you to tell the plumber that you can't pay him cause you don't have the cash, or tell the power company "hey, let's work it out."

If you can't pay, don't fucking play.

Attitudes like this make me fucking sick.

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if you can't afford insurance, you can't afford to skydive. For about 8 months I jumped while I wasn't working. As soon as I left my job I bought individual insurance. Never had to use it, but I wouldn't have jumped if it weren't there.

Ditto. I wouldn't jump without insurance. Not employed at the moment, but I'm covered under the S.O.'s policy.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[NWFlyer 2]

COBRA= paying full price for what your employer pays for your coveragge. So $700 a month for employee + child is totally expected. For most people who are younger and healthy, individual insurance will be a much better deal than COBRA. If you're sick, need a lot of care on a regular basis, and have reason to believe that you wouldn't qualify for individual insurance, COBRA may be worth it.

But employer subsidised insurance will almost always be a better deal than individual.

Yes, you could get individual insurance for you and your daughter, but what you're paying right now will get you much better coverage on a group plan than it would on an individual plan. The big advantage of sticking with your group plan is that there will be much less chance of you losing your insurance for any reason as group plans have stronger protections in that regard.

I paid maybe $75-80 month for individual; I pay about that much now for my share of my employer's health care coverage. But the coverage is WAY more generous.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Douva 0]

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Nobody takes a job as a skydiving instructor because it's the only work he or she can find. Like other forms of self-employment, working as a skydiving instructor is a choice, and like other forms of self-employment, you make some sacrifices for the freedom of being self-employed. I don't see any need to attract more instructors. In fact, at most of the drop zones I've visited, there seems to be an abundance of rating holders. Passing the cost of instructor health insurance on to jumpers would decrease the total number of jumps made (basic high school economics--supply and demand) and hurt a lot of already struggling DZ's.

A person does not have to put his or her life on hold simply because he or she doesn't have health insurance. There are about nine million Americans who are chronically without health insurance, and the vast majority of them are not bankrupted by injuries. Being without health insurance is not the best scenario, but it is manageable. Hospitals cannot refuse treatment to a seriously injured person, and hospitals must work out payment plans with people who cannot afford their medical bills. Also, although bankruptcy is not an ideal option, this is exactly why bankruptcy laws exist, to prevent people form being ruined by debt they cannot pay. Too many people put themselves into bad financial situations (i.e., credit card debt) in order to pay $100 or more per month for health insurance, because they're afraid of putting themselves into a bad financial situation if they should be injured or become ill. What is the logic in that? As for people making the decision between recreational activities and health insurance, that's a personal decision, but I'd be hesitant to suggest there's one answer that is right for everybody.

You want to go out and pay and have your fun but you don't wanna foot the bill when you get broken to pay me for fixing you? And you aren't willing to chip into the insurance that will pay me for fixing you? All because there exist all these ways to get out of personal responsibility for your actions.

I'd like you to tell the plumber that you can't pay him cause you don't have the cash, or tell the power company "hey, let's work it out."

If you can't pay, don't fucking play.

Attitudes like this make me fucking sick.

Attitudes like yours make me sick. You haven't got a clue what life is like for somebody working 40-60 hours a week to make $25,000-$30,000 per year. You make a six figure income and have your health insurance paid by your employer, and you presume to preach to the rest of us about how we spend our meager incomes. How about we just socialize medicine, cut your salary to about 1/3 - 1/4 of what it currently is, and then EVERYBODY can afford health care. Does that plan work for you?

That you would get so upset that I suggested bankruptcy might be an option for a person earning $30,000 per year and facing a $500,000 medical bill is inexcusable. This is the type of detached attitude that's historically lead to revolutions around the world (France, Russia, etc).

EDITED TO ADD: I have insurance. I've had it for four now. For four years before that, I didn't have it. In my whole life, I've never filed a health insurance claim. The plumber and the power company don't expect someone to pay $100/month, regardless of whether or not that person ever uses their services. And when a person does use the services of a plumber or the power company, that person isn't slapped with a bill that's 10-20 times his or her annual income.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[livendive 8]

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COBRA= paying full price for what your employer pays for your coveragge. So $700 a month for employee + child is totally expected.

Actually, the ~$700/month was just for me, not including my daughter. I didn't end up using it, so her and I were uninsured for about 10 days before I got another job...luckily neither of us got seriously injured during that time. I kind of suspected the rest of what you posted (that cheap privately purchased insurance doesn't cover nearly as well as employer-subsidized.)

Blue,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[grue 1]

For what it's worth, here's what my plan was before I left the US:

http://spiceweasel.net/healthinsurance.jpg

cavete terrae.

[PhreeZone 20]

It doesn't cover as well, but hell even major injury only insurance is less monthlythen the cost of a tank of gas in some places. The individual policy that my GF is on costs her 20% an office visit vs my flat $15 fee. She doesn't have near the drug prices and her yearly deductible is about double mine but its still reasonible.

My roommate makes under $10 a hour and he is signing up for insurance at the first chance he got from his employer. Its only about $15 cheaper a month for him to get that vs individual.

If you have the money to spend on $20 per jump lift tickets then you should be able to find the money to be insured.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[squirrel 0]

I am a self employed independent contractor(general contractor). We (wife and me) pay $173 a month for health insurance. We get a low monthly rate by choosing a high deductable, 5K for me, lower for her. I figure 5K on a credit card to handle a broken leg or worse is nothing. I just watch my ultralight instructor have an accident, and the helicopter ride alone was 14K.

Before there was medical insurance, medical visits were far less expensive. My mother had 5 of her 8 kids with no insurance...it was low cost enough just to pay cash. We all know that the insurance industry has forced the increase in medical costs. After all, insurance companys are like lawyers, a unecessary 3rd wheel, with no direct reason to be present in the picture, just there to profit from the situation.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

I'm ignorant on how plans work for at least health ins, so does anyone in the know have suggestions??????
Any ideas on workable solutions for work comp etc?????

If you are an independant contractor the thing to do nowadays is go buy insurance on your own.

Worker's Comp is only available to employees, not contractors because the employer pays into the system.

Now what would be really nice, would be if employers were NOT allowed to provide a benefit of insurance or
if they did that was a taxable income for the employee, as well as the value of any any claims for worker's comp.
EEs don't pay taxes on the part of the premium that the Employer pays. Same premium, paid by an indy, will be taxed because it comes from the income pile of money.

The insurance industry would change dramatically if everyone, no matter what type of employment (indy or ee) they had, had the same type of financial burden in obtaining insurance and getting paid by insurance companies.
It would probably go back to people having to get physicals for insurance rate determination.
Groups and premiums would be determined by your health and activities, not by who you worked for.

When I was a regular ee, I was FORCED to pay for life insurance, even though I did not want it or need it.
I wanted the 'benefit' amount stuck into my paycheck. "Nope, can't do that. You MUST have life insurance. That's part of the group plan."

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[wildcard451 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Nobody takes a job as a skydiving instructor because it's the only work he or she can find. Like other forms of self-employment, working as a skydiving instructor is a choice, and like other forms of self-employment, you make some sacrifices for the freedom of being self-employed. I don't see any need to attract more instructors. In fact, at most of the drop zones I've visited, there seems to be an abundance of rating holders. Passing the cost of instructor health insurance on to jumpers would decrease the total number of jumps made (basic high school economics--supply and demand) and hurt a lot of already struggling DZ's.

A person does not have to put his or her life on hold simply because he or she doesn't have health insurance. There are about nine million Americans who are chronically without health insurance, and the vast majority of them are not bankrupted by injuries. Being without health insurance is not the best scenario, but it is manageable. Hospitals cannot refuse treatment to a seriously injured person, and hospitals must work out payment plans with people who cannot afford their medical bills. Also, although bankruptcy is not an ideal option, this is exactly why bankruptcy laws exist, to prevent people form being ruined by debt they cannot pay. Too many people put themselves into bad financial situations (i.e., credit card debt) in order to pay $100 or more per month for health insurance, because they're afraid of putting themselves into a bad financial situation if they should be injured or become ill. What is the logic in that? As for people making the decision between recreational activities and health insurance, that's a personal decision, but I'd be hesitant to suggest there's one answer that is right for everybody.

You want to go out and pay and have your fun but you don't wanna foot the bill when you get broken to pay me for fixing you? And you aren't willing to chip into the insurance that will pay me for fixing you? All because there exist all these ways to get out of personal responsibility for your actions.

I'd like you to tell the plumber that you can't pay him cause you don't have the cash, or tell the power company "hey, let's work it out."

If you can't pay, don't fucking play.

Attitudes like this make me fucking sick.

Attitudes like yours make me sick. You haven't got a clue what life is like for somebody working 40-60 hours a week to make $25,000-$30,000 per year. You make a six figure income and have your health insurance paid by your employer, and you presume to preach to the rest of us about how we spend our meager incomes. How about we just socialize medicine, cut your salary to about 1/3 - 1/4 of what it currently is, and then EVERYBODY can afford health care. Does that plan work for you?

That you would get so upset that I suggested bankruptcy might be an option for a person earning $30,000 per year and facing a $500,000 medical bill is inexcusable. This is the type of detached attitude that's historically lead to revolutions around the world (France, Russia, etc).

EDITED TO ADD: PS. I have health insurance.

way to go and stick your foot in your mouth. I hardly make a six figure income yet. But you're right, I will. It's called a reward for working my fucking ass off to get here. And working my ass off to keep it. It's not like you get to the top and all of a sudden it's all milk and fucking honey.

Someone working 40-60 hours a week and only making $25-30K....can't afford health insurance? You shouldn't be skydiving. If you go off and get a $500K medical bill cause you were in a car accident from a drunk driver....sure, I can see writing that off. HOWEVER, you roll your fucking dice when you leave that plane. You do it without health insurance, femur yourself in.....well, tough shit. You made that choice, now deal with the consequences.

Your sheer lack of thought to personal responsibiltiy is absurd. Let's all go ahead and do all this shit we can't afford to do. Everyone else will bail us out. It's thoughts like this that let women keep popping out babies just to get a bigger welfare check.

I'm fucking sick and tired of paying for people who have no desire to take responsibility for their own actions.

[livendive 8]

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Now what would be really nice, would be if employers were NOT allowed to provide a benefit of insurance or
if they did that was a taxable income for the employee, as well as the value of any any claims for worker's comp.
EEs don't pay taxes on the part of the premium that the Employer pays. Same premium, paid by an indy, will be taxed because it comes from the income pile of money.

Why would that be nice? Because you're an independent contractor? Being your own boss has benefits and detriments. If you think the detriment is unfair, you can always go get a regular job. Tax-free medical insurance is part of my compensation package. Why would you want me to lose some of my pay?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[squirrel 0]

now here is something to think about. For that usual $200 and up monthly cost to get insurance, why not invest in a rental porperty. As long as the rent plus the montly medical insurace rate comes close to the mortage, you come out ahead, being that the money you are spending actually increases with equity growth. Have a bad accident, sell a house. Instead of pissing away money, invest. This was my answer for years...I prefered to invest in myself, not insurace companies. When I got married, we started buying medical insurance. Women typically have more medical expenses...due to the increased plumbing. I personally still have a super high deductable, because I have taken the savings and invested them, to cover my ass.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?