IAMBuddha 0 #1 August 13, 2009 I am suprised that there have been so few posts or safety articles written about drug and alcohol use in skydiving, especially in regards to instructors who abuse these substances. Please note I say "heavy" use. As a recent student, I am concerned with the quality of instruction and the clarity of judgement that is given from someone who has been partying until 3-4 in the morning and get up only a few hours later to teach AFF or do tandems. Alcohol and drug use seems to be acceptable and part of the "cool" skydiving lifestyle, although, people's lives are literally in their hands. I don't believe any skydiver would fully trust their Reserve being packed by someone sh!tfaced or high - why accept lifesaving instructions from that same person? Again let me state, topping off a few brewskies is not a problem - even seeing the occasional joint I would not fret about - but, HEAVY use...at what point is too much? Higher pay (should)=greater responsiblilty and self control. This is only my opinion, however, I believe this subject has been largely overlooked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #2 August 13, 2009 if you'd fill out your profile we'd kick your ass and ban your from every DZ for touching such delicate subject! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #3 August 13, 2009 QuoteHigher pay (should)=greater responsiblilty and self control. What does the size of the paycheck have to do with it? If it's a safety issue, the money is irrelevant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IAMBuddha 0 #4 August 13, 2009 Because not everyone becomes an instructor for the purpose of "paying it forward" or the love of "teaching others safely"...obviously not, if they do not see heavy drinking/drugs as a safety issue for even themselves. Money is their goal. I suppose I should say "higher authority should equal greater responsibility and self control" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #5 August 13, 2009 Find a new dz! Yes it is an instructors responsibility to be fully functional anytime they interact with students. Personally, I make sure I get a good nights sleep and drink little, and more likely nothing, the night before I teach. This means I leave the Saturday night party at the dz early and get abused for it. If you are jumping anywhere that it is acceptable for instructors to show up impared due to lack of sleep and too short a period from "bottle to toggle" then find a new dz."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerd137 0 #6 August 13, 2009 Quote I am suprised that there have been so few posts or safety articles written about drug and alcohol use in skydiving, especially in regards to instructors who abuse these substances. Heavy Drug and/or Alcohol Use & Its Affect on AFF Instructors - by nerd137 Heavy drug and/or alcohol use preceeding AFF instructions is bad. The End. There's your safety article. Seriously, what else is there to say? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thedude325 0 #7 August 13, 2009 Quote Higher pay (should)=greater responsiblilty and self control. This is only my opinion, however, I believe this subject has been largely overlooked. They don't get paid that much. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. You don't HAVE to jump there... I'm not saying it's good for them to be trashed all the time, but for buddha's sake, if you see something wrong LEAVE! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
heavydude 0 #8 August 13, 2009 I havnt really seen any of that in the CA dropzones I visit. As far as instructors I may have been really lucky but I have not ever ran into a drunk or doped one during daytime hours. I dont think at the major drop zones you could ever get away with it. Tandem customers seem to be the worse ones for drinking...then they dont get to jump. Also its a image thing like surfers, etc..... you always drank more than ever before..right before surfing the hugest wave.....lots of fish stories. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fallfast69 3 #9 August 13, 2009 Quote IAlso its a image thing like surfers, etc..... you always drank more than ever before..right before surfing the hugest wave.....lots of fish stories. Yep lots of fish stories Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #10 August 14, 2009 >What does the size of the paycheck have to do with it? Because a higher level of pay generally denotes a higher level of expected performance and professionalism. That's not to say that it's OK to do unsafe stuff if you don't get paid enough. However, if you want to attract instructors willing to not drink anything for 3 days at your request, expect to have to pay them a bit more. You get what you pay for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 28 #11 August 14, 2009 wrong. a bigger paycheck means more dope. period. /sarcasm-off/The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surfbum5412 0 #12 August 14, 2009 QuoteI am suprised that there have been so few posts or safety articles written about drug and alcohol use in skydiving, especially in regards to instructors who abuse these substances. Please note I say "heavy" use. As a recent student, I am concerned with the quality of instruction and the clarity of judgement that is given from someone who has been partying until 3-4 in the morning and get up only a few hours later to teach AFF or do tandems. Alcohol and drug use seems to be acceptable and part of the "cool" skydiving lifestyle, although, people's lives are literally in their hands. I don't believe any skydiver would fully trust their Reserve being packed by someone sh!tfaced or high - why accept lifesaving instructions from that same person? Again let me state, topping off a few brewskies is not a problem - even seeing the occasional joint I would not fret about - but, HEAVY use...at what point is too much? Higher pay (should)=greater responsiblilty and self control. This is only my opinion, however, I believe this subject has been largely overlooked. When I see drug use or heavy alcohol use from any skydiver, their reputation goes WAY down in my eyes. I once learned that a rigger was dropping acid just a few days before she packed my reserve. When she gave me my rig, the fucking RSL was connected to one of the 3-rings! WTF! I once got freefly coaching from someone that showed up that morning and I could smell the alcohol from across the room. Big let down. List goes on and on. The more you stick around, the more you'll be amazed at how reckless and immature some skydivers are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilot-one 0 #13 August 15, 2009 Quote>What does the size of the paycheck have to do with it? Because a higher level of pay generally denotes a higher level of expected performance and professionalism. That's not to say that it's OK to do unsafe stuff if you don't get paid enough. However, if you want to attract instructors willing to not drink anything for 3 days at your request, expect to have to pay them a bit more. You get what you pay for. Very rarely is this the case. You get the level of performance and professionalism that the job itself attracts and not what the pay attracts. I have over 100 employees on many different "levels" and have been through this many many times. I guarantee you that if you double the pay to the same person almost nothing will change. In fact it's proven that most likely things will deteriorate. Its the person, not the pay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #14 August 15, 2009 >>> Its the person, not the pay. <<< ~ I believe it's a cause & effect thing. If the job pays enough for a trailer rental - ramon noodle lifestyle, they ya get workerbees that are good with that. ~Usually younger 'more adventours' types. If the jobs pays 'comfortable living' wages...the competition to accurire and hold a position like that would nessessarily insure top performers. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclekenny01 0 #15 August 16, 2009 There is a time to party , a time to get sober. You EARN respet in the sport by being safe. The hot doggers maybe good and fun to watch , but people remember and trust the ones who are safe . I have being on a skydive (solo) not all sobered up , it's not good. I did not get hurt but it's best after a night of partying not to jump. Take yourself of the load . There should be stuff to do on the ground . Clean the beer frig, do stuff on the computer. Look at dropzones forums ..Quote Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #16 August 16, 2009 FAA says 8 hours bottle to throttle. Seems like a good starting point for instructors and tandem masters. You can party til midnight, get some sleep, and be doing tandems by 8 am, if you want. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites legalize1966 0 #17 August 16, 2009 Where does it say that? and how is it applied to Skydiving Instructors? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #18 August 16, 2009 QuoteFAA says 8 hours bottle to throttle. Seems like a good starting point for instructors and tandem masters. You can party til midnight, get some sleep, and be doing tandems by 8 am, if you want. Tests on navy pilots show continued impairment of flight skills 14 hours after drinking. ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/143/12/1546 Also see www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a784774085~db=all Many commercial air carriers have more restrictive limits than FAA's 8 hours.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #19 August 16, 2009 Quote Where does it say that? and how is it applied to Skydiving Instructors? I work in a safety related position in the FAA. It is our workplace rule. Also, if tested on the job, I have to have a BA of 0.0. There is no allowable alcohol limit. Since a tandem rating requires a class III medical and is regulated by the FAA in part 105, I figure the FAA would take a dim view of any TM drinking less than 8 hours prior to jumping or jumping with a measurable BA. Is that written for TM's? I don't think so, but, like I said, maybe it's a good place to start. Don't you feel every tandem passenger is entitled to a unimpaired, sober tandem master? If not, why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,989 #20 August 16, 2009 >I guarantee you that if you double the pay to the same person almost nothing will change. I agree. But if you offer X pay, and take the top 10 who are willing to work for that, then you offer 2X pay, and take the top 10 from _those_ applicants - the second group will, in general, be of higher quality than the first. You can't get a fool to become wiser by paying him more. But you can get excellent workers if you pay them enough. You can even get excellent workers for less money if the work is reduced. Case in point: If you are planning a demo, and need very good people for it, you may be able to get those very good people for fairly little pay if their job consists of jumping into an LZ near the drop zone with few restrictions on what they have to do, then feeding them dinner and giving them a ride back. If you want them to show up the day before at an LZ six hours away, wear a suit to talk to the client, drink nothing both days to maintain the right air of professionalism, wear an ill fitting jumpsuit you give them, then stick around and shake hands for a few hours - expect to pay more. If you don't want to pay more, you might still be able to get people who will do it. But they will be of lower quality. Whether or not you want those lower quality people doing that demo is a call you'd have to make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #21 August 17, 2009 yup, and it takes about an hour to get rid of 0.1 promille, say you were drunk pretty good and had about 1.5 promille, after the 8 hours you'll still have a BAC of 0.7. enough to get you a DUI! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crustySCSA69 0 #22 August 17, 2009 Quote There is a time to party , a time to get sober. You EARN respet in the sport by being safe. The hot doggers maybe good and fun to watch , but people remember and trust the ones who are safe . I have being on a skydive (solo) not all sobered up , it's not good. I did not get hurt but it's best after a night of partying not to jump. Take yourself of the load . There should be stuff to do on the ground . Clean the beer frig, do stuff on the computer. Look at dropzones forums .. Quote lol in the bad ol days when we discovered a jump completely cured a hangover... the only goal was not to puke on the first ride up... cause when you were down, you were cured... and a 2 jump hangover (obviously requiring 2 jumps to kill it) was a truly memorable 1 ... about 1 in 350 or, say, once a year and these days, ya'll even have decent beer to swill the night before .... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #23 August 17, 2009 If you are planning a demo, and need very good people for it, you may be able to get those very good people for fairly little pay if their job consists of jumping into an LZ near the drop zone with few restrictions on what they have to do, then feeding them dinner and giving them a ride back. If you want them to show up the day before at an LZ six hours away, wear a suit to talk to the client, drink nothing both days to maintain the right air of professionalism, wear an ill fitting jumpsuit you give them, then stick around and shake hands for a few hours - expect to pay more. If you don't want to pay more, you might still be able to get people who will do it. But they will be of lower quality. Whether or not you want those lower quality people doing that demo is a call you'd have to make. Excellent point~ you get what you pay for. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #16 August 16, 2009 FAA says 8 hours bottle to throttle. Seems like a good starting point for instructors and tandem masters. You can party til midnight, get some sleep, and be doing tandems by 8 am, if you want. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
legalize1966 0 #17 August 16, 2009 Where does it say that? and how is it applied to Skydiving Instructors? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #18 August 16, 2009 QuoteFAA says 8 hours bottle to throttle. Seems like a good starting point for instructors and tandem masters. You can party til midnight, get some sleep, and be doing tandems by 8 am, if you want. Tests on navy pilots show continued impairment of flight skills 14 hours after drinking. ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/143/12/1546 Also see www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a784774085~db=all Many commercial air carriers have more restrictive limits than FAA's 8 hours.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #19 August 16, 2009 Quote Where does it say that? and how is it applied to Skydiving Instructors? I work in a safety related position in the FAA. It is our workplace rule. Also, if tested on the job, I have to have a BA of 0.0. There is no allowable alcohol limit. Since a tandem rating requires a class III medical and is regulated by the FAA in part 105, I figure the FAA would take a dim view of any TM drinking less than 8 hours prior to jumping or jumping with a measurable BA. Is that written for TM's? I don't think so, but, like I said, maybe it's a good place to start. Don't you feel every tandem passenger is entitled to a unimpaired, sober tandem master? If not, why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #20 August 16, 2009 >I guarantee you that if you double the pay to the same person almost nothing will change. I agree. But if you offer X pay, and take the top 10 who are willing to work for that, then you offer 2X pay, and take the top 10 from _those_ applicants - the second group will, in general, be of higher quality than the first. You can't get a fool to become wiser by paying him more. But you can get excellent workers if you pay them enough. You can even get excellent workers for less money if the work is reduced. Case in point: If you are planning a demo, and need very good people for it, you may be able to get those very good people for fairly little pay if their job consists of jumping into an LZ near the drop zone with few restrictions on what they have to do, then feeding them dinner and giving them a ride back. If you want them to show up the day before at an LZ six hours away, wear a suit to talk to the client, drink nothing both days to maintain the right air of professionalism, wear an ill fitting jumpsuit you give them, then stick around and shake hands for a few hours - expect to pay more. If you don't want to pay more, you might still be able to get people who will do it. But they will be of lower quality. Whether or not you want those lower quality people doing that demo is a call you'd have to make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #21 August 17, 2009 yup, and it takes about an hour to get rid of 0.1 promille, say you were drunk pretty good and had about 1.5 promille, after the 8 hours you'll still have a BAC of 0.7. enough to get you a DUI! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crustySCSA69 0 #22 August 17, 2009 Quote There is a time to party , a time to get sober. You EARN respet in the sport by being safe. The hot doggers maybe good and fun to watch , but people remember and trust the ones who are safe . I have being on a skydive (solo) not all sobered up , it's not good. I did not get hurt but it's best after a night of partying not to jump. Take yourself of the load . There should be stuff to do on the ground . Clean the beer frig, do stuff on the computer. Look at dropzones forums .. Quote lol in the bad ol days when we discovered a jump completely cured a hangover... the only goal was not to puke on the first ride up... cause when you were down, you were cured... and a 2 jump hangover (obviously requiring 2 jumps to kill it) was a truly memorable 1 ... about 1 in 350 or, say, once a year and these days, ya'll even have decent beer to swill the night before .... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #23 August 17, 2009 If you are planning a demo, and need very good people for it, you may be able to get those very good people for fairly little pay if their job consists of jumping into an LZ near the drop zone with few restrictions on what they have to do, then feeding them dinner and giving them a ride back. If you want them to show up the day before at an LZ six hours away, wear a suit to talk to the client, drink nothing both days to maintain the right air of professionalism, wear an ill fitting jumpsuit you give them, then stick around and shake hands for a few hours - expect to pay more. If you don't want to pay more, you might still be able to get people who will do it. But they will be of lower quality. Whether or not you want those lower quality people doing that demo is a call you'd have to make. Excellent point~ you get what you pay for. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #24 August 17, 2009 The 8 hour bottle to throttle rule is not applicable to tandem instructors, even thought they need a 3rd class medical certificate. § 91.17(a) prohibits any person from acting or attempting to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft: · Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage; · While under the influence of alcohol; · While using any drug that affects the person’s faculties in any way contrary to safety; or · While having an alcohol concentration of 0.04% or greater in a blood or breath specimen. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #25 August 17, 2009 FAA says 8 hours bottle to throttle. Rut~Row I thought it was 8 INCHES....I've been drinkin' left handed all these years for nuthin?! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
