faulknerwn 38 #1 August 18, 2009 We recently had one of our young jumpers (100 jumps) show up with a 135 Cobalt that he was loading at 1.5. Apparently someone in New York sold it to him without knowing (or caring) his experience. Obviously once we found out we didn't let him jump it again here, but he travels a lot and can probably manage to keep doing it somewhere where people don't know him. He's young and has no concept of the fact that skydiving was dangerous. We want to keep the kid alive - he's a nice kid - but are having trouble getting him to understand how dangerous what he's doing is.. (He's already started talking about buying a 120 to swoop with!) So I started thinking about compiling a list with links of the hundreds of incidents where rookies who thought they were far better than they were hurt or killed themselves.. Something like 120 jumps Cobalt 120 1.5 wing loading broken femur URL 200 jumps Stilleto 150 1.4 paralysis URL etc.. Then I thought of how often we have this problem with rookie jumpers and thought that someone else might have started such a list or would be willing to contribute time/effort to it. I'd really like to keep this kid from suffering life-threatening injuries, but I think so far that all we can do is keep it from happening at our dz.. Thoughts? W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #2 August 18, 2009 That's a great idea, Wendy. Not sure how much it would do to deter bulletproof types, but maybe it would save someone.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chubba 0 #3 August 18, 2009 1.5 Cobalt at 100 jumps? Holy hell. He's only going to need one hairy landing, he'll either scare himself straight or end up in a wheelchair. Surely there wouldn't be a single DZ that would allow him to jump that rig? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #4 August 18, 2009 Yes. You might want to show him the following: Remember when Ted Nelson was downsizing rapidly and landing aggressively; people were trying to get him to upsize and slow down; he was assuring everyone that he would be OK; and then, sadly, he was killed while landing his canopy? Here's the thread in which Ted and other jumpers were having the debate in 2004. In 2006, it was resurrected when Ted initially was critically injured, and then tragically died of his injuries a few days later: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1106024#1106024 Here's the Incident thread reporting Ted's tragic landing, critical injury and death: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2347085#2347085 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #5 August 18, 2009 No - and we found out pretty quick here (Cessna dz where he was trained) when he opened up on the first jump. He travels a lot though - if he showed up at Eloy - he could probably get away with it until he hurt himself or someone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #6 August 18, 2009 Wanna PM me a name in case he arrives out here? I would love to help him learn, but he will have to upsize significantly.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #7 August 19, 2009 Hi Wendy, The closest I have is a compilation someone made of dz.com landing fatality reports. See attached. I can't find the original post so I don't know who to credit for doing the work. The reports are still in their original form so they are messy and don't highlight experience and wing loading neatly. But it is a start. And the list is a long, long one to print out and put in front of the jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Draggyn 0 #8 August 19, 2009 WOW !!! Ok I am still a non jumper right now I even I would know not to jump something like that. Me being 6ft around 220 I could not even fathom attempting something on that scale ! I hope he listens to someone and scales up the canopy size. Yea swooping looks cool but better left to those that have the knowledge and experience. Prolly something I will never want to do but still. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heatmiser 0 #9 August 19, 2009 You'd be suprised. The beast can wake up pretty quickly, "Maybe I can handle that elliptical," or "I didn't hurt myself when I jumped that smaller size." These thoughts start working their way in, you see the swoopers having so much fun on their sub 100's, lots of smart people have talked themselves into smaller, less forgiving canopies. It's hard for me to say, "I want to learn to swoop one day, but I can't short cut experience." We are a fast food nation. What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 33 #10 August 19, 2009 Unfortunately, your plan probably won't make a difference because "I'm better (substitute smarter, more careful, have better judgement, safer) than they were." And the beat goes on, the beat goes on.......This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 14 #11 August 20, 2009 QuoteRemember when Ted Nelson was downsizing rapidly and landing aggressively...then, sadly, he was killed while landing his canopy? Yeah, but Ted had such Mad Skilz...Just ask him. Oh yeah, he's dead._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 130 #12 August 20, 2009 What is that saying about old - bold skydivers? On yea, "There aren't any Old - Bold skydivers." those that don't listen eventually change, quit or get smashedGive one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farmy 0 #13 August 20, 2009 I couldn't believe they were under that canopy either. You have to wonder what is going through someone's mind when they are being so agressive. Especially, after they've been warned of the risk. Scary stuff not only for them but for those of us that have to jump around someone that could potentially be out of control. Josh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #14 August 20, 2009 QuoteI couldn't believe they were under that canopy either. You have to wonder what is going through someone's mind when they are being so agressive. Especially, after they've been warned of the risk. It's the same reason 17 year old boys drive the family car around curves doing 70 mph. They think they have the skills to pull it off, and that people who warn them are simply underestimating their skill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #15 August 20, 2009 Help a dumb ass out....what's the perk of going so small? Maybe it's due to my injury...but I'm thinking.....big may be safer than small anyday!Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sangi 0 #16 August 20, 2009 QuoteHelp a dumb ass out....what's the perk of going so small? Maybe it's due to my injury...but I'm thinking.....big may be safer than small anyday! Quote I suspect that Sangi's point was that our attitude toward what is "safe" or at least a reasonable level of risk will change over time, not that we all develop a death wish. For example, my first canopy was a PD 9-cell 210. I was loading that at about 0.95:1. When I first started, I never used front risers as part of landing because diving at the ground and increasing my speed during landing was a more advanced and riskier move. I also said that I had no interest in swooping or high performance landings. As I gained skill and experience I started to experiment with double fronts. Today, I jump a Sabre2 150 loaded at about 1.36:1. I often do 90 or 180 front risers turns to land and find such landings fun. I'm no swoop jock just yet, nor is it on my immediate list of goals in the sport, but at the same time, I can see myself transitioning to a Katana at some point, downsizing further and perhaps one day even flying a cross-braced canopy."Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heatmiser 0 #17 August 20, 2009 What's the point of you riding the super charged crotch rocket you ride when you could be on a Yamaha 250? Plenty of guys have been scraped off the road from riding a bike that was too much for them. Same mentality. You would probably tell some guy that has a few months riding that jumping on that Hayabusa isn't smart, but that won't prevent the experienced riders from tearing it up with one. What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #18 August 20, 2009 Quote What's the point of you riding the super charged crotch rocket you ride when you could be on a Yamaha 250? Plenty of guys have been scraped off the road from riding a bike that was too much for them. Same mentality. You would probably tell some guy that has a few months riding that jumping on that Hayabusa isn't smart, but that won't prevent the experienced riders from tearing it up with one. Well......OK I'll give you that. A squid is a squid. But here is the thing, a 1L bike can be ridden like a 250ccc bike. That thing on the right hand side is a variable switch. It's not like you can add and or subract material to a canopy? It is what it is. But I see where you are comming from and yes many many many squids become organ doners / parts bikes in May/September.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #19 August 20, 2009 >But here is the thing, a 1L bike can be ridden like a 250ccc bike. And people think that canopies work the same way. "Dude, don't worry - I'll be super careful and only land straight in." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #20 August 20, 2009 Quote And people think that canopies work the same way. "Dude, don't worry - I'll be super careful and only land straight in." We have a word for that in the bike world, SQUID! In the skydiving world I think you call them pot holes?Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #21 August 20, 2009 QuoteQuote And people think that canopies work the same way. "Dude, don't worry - I'll be super careful and only land straight in." We have a word for that in the bike world, SQUID! In the skydiving world I think you call them pot holes? DGITs. Dead Guys In Training."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #22 August 21, 2009 Quote DGITs. Dead Guys In Training. I hope to never be a DGIT. I just want nice safe landings. Maybe I'm nutty but for me free fall / flying is the most peaceful experience I have ever had. But hay that's me. I hope this guy learns before he's spare parts. I think one of the posters had a compiled list of accidents which may convince him to upgrade?Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #23 August 21, 2009 QuoteHelp a dumb ass out....what's the perk of going so small? Maybe it's due to my injury...but I'm thinking.....big may be safer than small anyday! WHy do people want Bigger, faster, aggressive, sportier bikes? Same old ... same old. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #24 August 21, 2009 Quote WHy do people want Bigger, faster, aggressive, sportier bikes? Same old ... same old. OK cool! I get it. The smaller more aggressive canopies carve better and harder and thus you can have more fun on the way down. They just need more experience and skill to land? And if your skills don't match up with what you are flying the landings could kill you. I got it now! It's like comparing a sport touring bike to a super sport bike! OK cool! I get it now. I'm learning I'm learning......Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #25 August 21, 2009 Yeap, well, that's my take. And in both disciplines, you'll always frind folks who want to 'push the envelope' early in their career ..... often for Cool Points or because they think that have Mad Skilz. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
