RogerRamjet 0 #1 December 28, 2006 QuoteSimilar murder: "30/05/1999 Munster, Germany BIZ 31 Y/? Description: The deceased gear was likely tampered with by a failed suitor, who has since confessed to the act. He packed a line-over on the main, severed the reserve cable, and routed the reserve loop past the CYPRES cutter. The obvious sequence of events followed. The line-over may not have been packed by the suspected murderer, and may have happened by chance. The suspect has now withdrawn his confession (7/25/99). Lessons:Words cannot express my dislike for this disturbed individual". Also, there was a case, when someone cut two reserve risers on Kirk Verner's rig. Someomne else jumped it and alost died... Would the re-routing of the reserve loop be easily missed in a pin check? ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #2 December 28, 2006 I'm splitting this off to G&R. The answer is Yes it would be undetectable on some rig designs. On others you would barely be able to tell but not via a normal pin check but would have to really look through the grommets and trace the loop backwards and you might be able to see it but thats a very slight possibility.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #3 December 28, 2006 QuoteI'm splitting this off to G&R. The answer is Yes it would be undetectable on some rig designs. On others you would barely be able to tell but not via a normal pin check but would have to really look through the grommets and trace the loop backwards and you might be able to see it but thats a very slight possibility. Can you clarify this for me, as I am not a rigger. I was under the impression that EVERY rig could be inspected, in the closed configuration, whether or not the aad loop passed through the aad cutter or not. I know on my Racer I can do this. I can see that the loop goes through the cutter. Are you saying that on some other rigs this is not possible? What I don't understand is how this is not possible. I thought the aad had to be positioned against the 'farthest flap', whether it is the interior or exterior flap. So if some company has the routing in the middle flaps, the user would not be able to determine if the routing was correct?? .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #4 December 28, 2006 On a Javelin the cutter is on the backpad/kicker plate and unless you can some how manage to see through all the flaps grommets, the Pilotchute and the grommet in the freebag I know of no way to verify it is routed correctly while closed.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #5 December 28, 2006 On my Wings the cutter is beneath the whole packjob - it is not on a flap at all. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
everymansaved 0 #6 December 28, 2006 Yeah, on some rigs (Javelin / Wings, etc...) the cutter is on the backpad, and cannot be seen once the reserve is closed. On other rigs (VooDoo / Mirage, etc...) it's on one of the flaps, and you might be able to see it, I'm not sure. EFS, Sean LRGod made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TMPattersonJr 0 #7 December 28, 2006 QuoteYeah, on some rigs (Javelin / Wings, etc...) the cutter is on the backpad, and cannot be seen once the reserve is closed. On other rigs (VooDoo / Mirage, etc...) it's on one of the flaps, and you might be able to see it, I'm not sure. EFS, Sean LR The only rig that I know of that you could see the loops going through the cutters would be the Racer with the loops coming from the pilotchute and pinned through the backpad. So when you open the pin flap you can see your pins and look through the gromet and see if the cutter is routed properly. The others as far as I know even if not mounted on the backpad are pretty much impossible to see once the container has been closed.Blue SkiesBlack DeathFacebook www.PLabsInc.com www.SkydiveDeLand.com www.FlyteSkool.ws Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parafredo 0 #8 December 28, 2006 If you do not trust your rigger or if the rigger does noy trust his job or your rigger wants your death,everything is possible...Not every rigs are perfect,not every riggers are perfect,but I hope not too many riggers are killers!!!Scary things sometime happens and I saw some of them but not to intend to do so,just bad rigging wich could have cause minor troubles.But this case is leaving me a little cold breese on my bones.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #9 December 29, 2006 QuoteOn a Javelin the cutter is on the backpad/kicker plate and unless you can some how manage to see through all the flaps grommets, the Pilotchute and the grommet in the freebag I know of no way to verify it is routed correctly while closed. You mean people jump without actually knowing for sure that their aad is installed correctly? wow. For some reason I always thought you could see the closing loop routing through the aad and closure pin. Must be a Racer induced feature expectation. Chalk up one more reason to get a rigger's ticket. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #10 December 29, 2006 You could see this on a racer and I think on a tear drop and reflex. The key being the pop top with the pin on the backpad. Otherwise the cutter is hidden inside the reserve tray. This should not be a concern to jumpers here in the US. If the rig is sealed, and you trust your rigger, take care of the outside, we'll take care of the inside. Once I hand a packed rig to someone, i expect them to feel confident in the work, and worry only about keeping the rig up to snuff. Not worrying about checking the inside. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #11 December 29, 2006 QuoteChalk up one more reason to get a rigger's ticket. Yep and should the day ever come you find your rig and your SO's rig tampered with as I have, you'll start locking them up and never leave them where some one could get to it, it only takes a few second to cut a reserve riser and stuff it back in or other types of tampering. Also I don't see in this thread anyone bring up the reserve pin "sleeve" some one made to slide over the pin and was found at repack when the ripcord was pulled and they got a total, because the "sleeve" was still in place. Yep there are some real lowlife mother fuckers in the sport, steal your gear or try to kill you, just watch out who you bad mouth or as some would say "snitch" on.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #12 December 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteOn a Javelin the cutter is on the backpad/kicker plate and unless you can some how manage to see through all the flaps grommets, the Pilotchute and the grommet in the freebag I know of no way to verify it is routed correctly while closed. You mean people jump without actually knowing for sure that their aad is installed correctly? wow. For some reason I always thought you could see the closing loop routing through the aad and closure pin. Must be a Racer induced feature expectation. Chalk up one more reason to get a rigger's ticket. . It's even worse, a lot of people (possible you too) jump without actually knowing, that their reserve connected to their risersWhy drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #13 December 29, 2006 Quote This should not be a concern to jumpers here in the US. If the rig is sealed, and you trust your rigger, take care of the outside, we'll take care of the inside. And riggers outside of the US do not? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #14 December 29, 2006 QuoteQuote This should not be a concern to jumpers here in the US. If the rig is sealed, and you trust your rigger, take care of the outside, we'll take care of the inside. And riggers outside of the US do not? I'll venture to submit he means that in the US, reserve pins must be sealed. I don't know about everywhere else, but I've jumped in some countries where the reserve seal isn't required. In the US, if you don't have a seal, you don't jump. Twice I've been at different DZ's with a two different friends, both riggers, and neither had their seal on the pin, and in both cases, they had to run back out to the car and "make amends" before they could get past manifest. I don't think anyone is suggesting riggers in the US are superior to non-US riggers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sabre1Lucke 0 #15 December 29, 2006 In Belgium the seal on the reserve pin is obligatory! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dontiego 0 #16 December 29, 2006 QuoteIn Belgium the seal on the reserve pin is obligatory! I think it is forbidden in UK (could someone confirm?)."We call on the common man to rise up in revolt against this evil of typographical ignorance." http://bancomicsans.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #17 December 29, 2006 It is permitted in the UK, but most riggers there seem to only seal it if the person is going to be visiting the States has been the feedback from most jumpers on this question in the past.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #18 December 29, 2006 All i meant is the seal. I am unaware of the sealing procedures in all other countries except the UK, where i thought it is forbidden. Sealed rig means the pack job has stayed closed. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #19 December 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteIn Belgium the seal on the reserve pin is obligatory! I think it is forbidden in UK (could someone confirm?). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Incorrect! Britain is one of the few countries where seals are optional. The British Parachute Association has even developed a complex method of tying seal thread around a pin, so that you don't have to break the seal thread to open your reserve. Seals are mandatory - on reserves - in most other countries. No seal = no jump in most countries! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #20 December 29, 2006 QuoteSealed rig means the pack job has stayed closed. What's to prevent someone from removing and then replacing the seal?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 14 #21 December 29, 2006 QuoteYou mean people jump without actually knowing for sure that their aad is installed correctly? There are many things in a reserve that you cannot see when it is packed. This is just one of them. As has been said, your reserve connector links could be missing or unscrewed - you can't see them, can you? That's only one example. If you do not trust your rigger to assemble and pack your equipmemt properly, then you have a problem. Kevin_____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #22 December 29, 2006 Removing, nothing. Replacing, with my imprinted seal. They would have to order my die and want to fuck both me and you. Not saying it cant happen, but i seriously doubt it. If the seal is scratched and not pressed, it aint mine. Check the seal as part of the gear check. I do. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #23 December 29, 2006 QuoteRemoving, nothing. Replacing, with my imprinted seal. They would have to order my die and want to fuck both me and you. Not saying it cant happen, but i seriously doubt it. If the seal is scratched and not pressed, it aint mine. Check the seal as part of the gear check. I do. Okay then. I wish I had my rig handy to look at the seal. You're saying that the seal and thread can't be reused or that the thread can't be replaced leaving the seal intact?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #24 December 29, 2006 QuoteOkay then. I wish I had my rig handy to look at the seal. You're saying that the seal and thread can't be reused or that the thread can't be replaced leaving the seal intact? The seal thread runs through the middle of the lead seal, then around the pin, then back through the seal and then it is pressed closed. When the pin is pulled, the thread breaks (unless the rigger leaves too long a loop around the pin). So, to answer your question, the seal and thread can only be used one time and cannot be removed from the rig without breaking the thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #25 December 29, 2006 QuoteNo seal = no jump in most countries! assuming the dropzone checks your rig. a dz in southern Ontario (and I assume your dz, because they have the same owner) make a point of NOT checking rigs. my local little dz does not check. can't remember if deland checks the rig or not... rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
