mcordell 2 #176 March 2, 2015 Quote The intent is to gather information about the answerer. If they pick the guy with no camera jumps just because he went by the "SIM recommendations" they are just saying that to say it. Like being stuck in their way, kind of like an elderly person who won't change because they have been doing the same thing for so long. That's kind of a closed-minded view of things. You formed an opinion and then feel like anyone who disagrees is just wrong or stuck in their ways. Your logic is not everyone else's logic. I'm not saying I do or don't agree with the 200 jump rule, but there could be a logical reason for choosing to jump with someone with 200 jumps on their first camera jump vs someone with 200 jumps who has already done 100 camera jumps. One way to look at it is perhaps people don't want to jump with someone who is willing to disregard the safety recommendations of the experienced jumpers. Another way to look at it is, perhaps someone would rather jump with the guy who spent 200 jumps working on his flying skills rather than the guy who spent 100 of those 200 jumps dicking with a camera instead of focusing on their flying. It did kind of seem like you came on here and asked an overall question about camera jumping having already formed an opinion and then asked repeatedly in different ways fishing for the answer you wanted. If you are going to ask people's opinions then you should probably be open to receiving them.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rick 67 #177 March 2, 2015 mcordell It did kind of seem like you came on here and asked an overall question about camera jumping having already formed an opinion and then asked repeatedly in different ways fishing for the answer you wanted. If you are going to ask people's opinions then you should probably be open to receiving them. I agree with you here. You can't just summarily dismiss someone's opinion because you don't agree with it. I have seen people that were having a hard time acquiring the skills to jump with others strap on a camera because they thought it would be easier to film the group than fly with it. In those cases I would rather jump with the guy that spent 200 jumps getting the skill set to jump with others than the guy that gave up after 100 and strapped on a camera.You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,072 #178 March 2, 2015 >That makes the only logical conclusion to jump with the person with more camera jumps because >the chance that the camera is going to distract them is less than the person using it for the first time. Please take semantic games/trolling questions to Bonfire and leave this forum for discussion of actual safety and training related discussions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JWest 0 #179 March 2, 2015 It is a close minded way to look at it, but it was necessary to establish the state of mind of some of the posters. Which it worked well at. My opinion is that the instructors and coaches you jump with know more than strangers on the internet. Someone post a video resulting in them being attacked by the community without any other details about the situation other than jump number being less than 200 happens relatively often. As many of you have said and I agree with, there are many other factors that come into play in reality. Majority of which are more safety oriented than a camera distraction, the snag hazard of the camera is a real threat. I understand this and agree with you. Again the only reason I asked that closed minded question was to establish information about the people answering. I am open minded and willing to change my opinion. Many people are incapable of admitting a situation exists that goes against their standard position. I believe the C-License is a good recommendation to have for jumping a camera. Because the C-License requires proof of many prolificness. Not the "200 Jump" recommendation people keep saying. Which I think is one of the smaller parts of the C- license requirements. I would much rather see experienced jumpers say c-license than 200 jumps. This is another thing I hoped to accomplish with this thread. I got my answer a while ago and that is why I stopped responding. I concluded that people contribute jump number to ability. Something we all know can be an inaccurate. When all the facts come into play including attitude, following the sim says a lot about a person to the experienced people in this community. In general people should follow the recommendation of a C-license in the SIM, that being said I still believe if the DZO,S&TA, and/or Instructors believe you are ready before then it is ok to take the recommendation of the experienced people that have actually seen you jump over the SIM recommendation and the overall opinion of a community that doesn't know your proficiency level. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #180 March 3, 2015 JWest I am open minded and willing to change my opinion. Many people are incapable of admitting a situation exists that goes against their standard position. To answer some confusion from a few posts up (re: the definition of a circle jerk), it's a lot like the quote above, but with more than one person congratulating himself.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trafficdiver 8 #181 March 3, 2015 The111 ***I am open minded and willing to change my opinion. Many people are incapable of admitting a situation exists that goes against their standard position. To answer some confusion from a few posts up (re: the definition of a circle jerk), it's a lot like the quote above, but with more than one person congratulating himself. /end thread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JWest 0 #182 March 3, 2015 The111 ***I am open minded and willing to change my opinion. Many people are incapable of admitting a situation exists that goes against their standard position. To answer some confusion from a few posts up (re: the definition of a circle jerk), it's a lot like the quote above, but with more than one person congratulating himself. Haha, I did find that funny, good job. If you are saying that I am proud of a trait that many people are incapable of then you are correct. I am glad I have the ability to change my mind when presented with factual information. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #183 March 3, 2015 JWest It is a close minded way to look at it, but it was necessary to establish the state of mind of some of the posters. Which it worked well at. Mark stated very nicely what I was thinking. Your quote above I believe to be incorrect. Your trying to ask a question that, inaccurately in my view, backs up your position. When in fact, it clearly shows that YOU are the one with the closed mind. In light of good, sound, factual information from several experienced (and by experienced I mean they have more than 10 times the jumps or years in the sport than you) skydivers, you continue to argue your incorrect stance. So, I'll answer your "loaded" question this way... I would jump with either of the jumpers from your scenario before I'd jump with you. You are right about one thing, It really doesn't have anything to do with jump #'s or time in sport. Now, I'm assuming that you're probably not as bad as all that. But, I don't know you and I've only your posts to base that decision on. Being more open minded, I'm willing to listen to rebuttal arguments? I'd suggest a fresh approach however.Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JWest 0 #184 March 4, 2015 skyjumpenfool Your quote above I believe to be incorrect. Your trying to ask a question that, inaccurately in my view, backs up your position. When in fact, it clearly shows that YOU are the one with the closed mind. In light of good, sound, factual information from several experienced (and by experienced I mean they have more than 10 times the jumps or years in the sport than you) skydivers, you continue to argue your incorrect stance. I'd suggest a fresh approach however. If you are saying my stance that the instructors you jump with are a better judge of your abilities than the SIM is incorrect, I cannot really argue against that. There is no point in arguing against it. As for the question I asked being an attempt to inaccurately back up my position, that is just incorrect. I know that if you include all the factors in my question that the answer can go either way depending on those factors. I have no desire to explain this to you nor the time, what I was doing is a proven method of information extraction. It also worked as expected. Anyway as you have gathered my position is that some people are capable of developing in the sport at different rates. Just as some people are capable of more safely using a camera than others. Do not take my words as saying it is completely safe because as it has been showing experience jumpers -by your definition- can also have incidents caused by their cameras. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #185 March 4, 2015 [inline 58a.jpg]www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt3sa 0 #186 April 16, 2015 I think the theory that the coaches and instructors that people jump with can in fact be better judges of skill than a blanket guideline can, but I come from a 182 dropzone. With 10 to 15 skydivers. Nothing is missed. Every jump is discussed. There are instructors on almost every 4 way or 2 way load that goes up. This discussion is bringing me memories of my trip to z-hills in 2013. I recall a 20 way tracking dive where they were allowing people with less than 50 jumps in on the action. Two of the participants were asking g me for advice on how to aim their new gopros and how to adjust settings. It was extremely unsettling. I feel like some of the bigger dz's need blanket rules and need to actually enforce them for reasons like this. Z hills felt like a circus. Several times I had to speak up and do some of the most simple yet critical tasks like organizing how groups entered the otter based on size and discipline. I had to practically beg for a dropzone briefIng. I remember we arrived the day after those two foreigners went in. I think it was March. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #187 April 17, 2015 Didn't it used to be 100 jumps? I forget. Anyway I'd say lower than 200 but only because I think 100+ or 150+ is not an unreasonable threshold. It's a possible distraction but there are many possible distractions. How long before some committee decides it should be 500 jumps, that'll take a few bounce POV videos I guess. Skydivers are great at moving the goalposts once they make the grade and raise barriers to entry for new jumpers. Then insult them for claiming to have "mad skillz" for doing what we did and in this case what folks in other sports do all the time without incident. 100 jumps used to be a pretty high respected number of jumps. Now you're still a noob because experienced jumpers want to feel special. Is this really enhancing safety with lessons "written in blood" or BSR creep encroaching on the freedoms of newer jumpers and diminishing their fun in the sport? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #188 April 17, 2015 Rick I have seen people that were having a hard time acquiring the skills to jump with others strap on a camera because they thought it would be easier to film the group than fly with it. Ouch, probably the worst reason to jump camera, misguided and actively dangerous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #189 April 17, 2015 billvon >200 is just a number, wouldn't it be better if there was a class and your first >jump had to be with a couch? They could then sign you off. That would be great. But even D-licenses, AFF ratings and PRO ratings have experience requirements you have to meet _before_ you get tested. Careful what you wish for, this could end with a requirement for a camera rating and a $1500 course you have to take before taking the test. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #190 April 17, 2015 dorbie Skydivers are great at moving the goalposts once they make the grade and raise barriers to entry for new jumpers. Then insult them for claiming to have "mad skillz" for doing what we did and in this case what folks in other sports do all the time without incident. 100 jumps used to be a pretty high respected number of jumps. Now you're still a noob because experienced jumpers want to feel special. Skydivers are much more practiced at thinking they're better at something than they actually are... 100 jumps used to be a large number in the 70s. You'll agree we've learned some stuff since then? As we learn, we change our understanding of the sport. Recommendations for canopies and gear has changed as we've leart more about what to do and what NOT to do with it... Recommendations for best practices in freefall have changed as we've see trends of what has got people hurt or killed... Not everyone who wants to jump a camera early falls into the 'mad skillz' category - Only those who insist that they know better than far more experienced people do. Others just need some education and don't get that moniker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #191 April 17, 2015 dorbie ***>200 is just a number, wouldn't it be better if there was a class and your first >jump had to be with a couch? They could then sign you off. That would be great. But even D-licenses, AFF ratings and PRO ratings have experience requirements you have to meet _before_ you get tested. Careful what you wish for, this could end with a requirement for a camera rating and a $1500 course you have to take before taking the test. Nonsense. But maybe a $250 course of instruction with a handful of coached jumps. I'm all for that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #192 April 17, 2015 Still others remember the shit they got up to and don't try to impose arbitrary and creeping safety criteria on others. 200 is a completely arbitrary number based on guesswork and assumptions. No doubt there's someone somewhere saying it should be 500 or 1000. Distraction never goes away. You say nonsense to my $1500 course, but advocate a $250 course. + coached jumps (~$80 a pop) that's actually funny. Yesterday's normal is today's arrogant "mad skillz", all you have to do is move the goalposts and act holier than thou. It's an easy way to dismiss the objections of new brothers in the sport complaining about excessive restrictions. It's worth remembering that this is an arbitrary line in the sand based on fungible reasoning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JWest 0 #193 April 17, 2015 dorbie Still others remember the shit they got up to and don't try to impose arbitrary and creeping safety criteria on others. 200 is a completely arbitrary number based on guesswork and assumptions. No doubt there's someone somewhere saying it should be 500 or 1000. Distraction never goes away. You say nonsense to my $1500 course, but advocate a $250 course. + coached jumps (~$80 a pop) that's actually funny. Yesterday's normal is today's arrogant "mad skillz", all you have to do is move the goalposts and act holier than thou. It's an easy way to dismiss the objections of new brothers in the sport complaining about excessive restrictions. It's worth remembering that this is an arbitrary line in the sand based on fungible reasoning. The recommendation in the SIM isn't simply 200 jumps, It's a C license. Which involves so much more than 200 jumps. So let's just nip that and stop saying 200 jumps. On top of that yes a $1500 course is absurd, stop being confrontational. AFF level one doesn't even cost that much and is much longer, more comprehensive, and involves a jump with two instructors. That is much more than a camera course would need to be. I stated this thread to see if people cared more about a misunderstood recommendation from the SIM than the guidance of the jumpers instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #194 April 17, 2015 dorbie Still others remember the shit they got up to and don't try to impose arbitrary and creeping safety criteria on others. So just because we had low pull contests back then is a reason to remove the deployment altitude recommendations now then? Just because we didn't have seatbelts in aircraft, we should probably stop insisting people buckle up on take off? This 'we did stuff 30 years ago so x" line of reasoning has to stop. It's ridiculous. There has to be some common sense involved. I'm against an arbitrary figure, but I'm also against a free-for-all. I think a DZ could offer a course of instruction for new camera jumpers which would include coach jumps for a couple of hundred bucks. It's as much to act as a mental barrier to entry as anything else. "OK. You want to jump a camera? Fine. Lets talk about how to do it safely, and then you have the opportunity to prove it to me", rather than people just sticking a camera on and going for it. It forces a little bit of 'take this seriously' mentality. It's not a profit making opportunity - It's an educational one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #195 April 17, 2015 dorbie 200 is a completely arbitrary number based on guesswork and assumptions. No, an arbitrary number is 70593. If a number is based on something, it's not arbitrary. JWest The recommendation in the SIM isn't simply 200 jumps, It's a C license. Which involves so much more than 200 jumps. So let's just nip that and stop saying 200 jumps. It's an understandable simplification, since if you get to 200 jumps without meeting the qualifications for a C license, you probably have much bigger problems than not being ready to fly a camera.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #196 April 19, 2015 The111 ***200 is a completely arbitrary number based on guesswork and assumptions. No, an arbitrary number is 70593. If a number is based on something, it's not arbitrary. JWest The recommendation in the SIM isn't simply 200 jumps, It's a C license. Which involves so much more than 200 jumps. So let's just nip that and stop saying 200 jumps. It's an understandable simplification, since if you get to 200 jumps without meeting the qualifications for a C license, you probably have much bigger problems than not being ready to fly a camera. Plus, experienced (Thousands of jumps) instructors have had an eye on you if you've earned a C license. A C license demonstrates some level of proficiency. 200 jumps....not so much? Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #197 April 19, 2015 Quote the objections of new brothers in the sport complaining about excessive restrictions. Most of the new brothers in the sport don't know what they don't know. But they keep complaining and whingeing which gets rather repetitive and tiresome. Listening to the voice of experience would serve them better.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #198 April 19, 2015 dorbie Still others remember the shit they got up to and don't try to impose arbitrary and creeping safety criteria on others... Or they remember the shit that they got away with, often "more luck than skill." They also remember the friends that they lost due to stupid shit. I've been around a few years, I don't remember the recommendations "creeping upwards" at all. It's been 200 jumps/C-license for as long as I can recall (admittedly only about a dozen years). First informally, then formally in the SIM."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #199 May 11, 2015 skyjumpenfool Plus, experienced (Thousands of jumps) instructors have had an eye on you if you've earned a C license. A C license demonstrates some level of proficiency. 200 jumps....not so much? Ahh you mean the number of jumps that used to earn you a D license. Check. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #200 May 11, 2015 The111 ***200 is a completely arbitrary number based on guesswork and assumptions. No, an arbitrary number is 70593. If a number is based on something, it's not arbitrary. Don't confuse round with non-arbitrary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
