Circumcision reduces HIV infection rate by 50% in Africa

[livendive 8]

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So what's the big difference? If it is socially unacceptable to remove the prepuce from a female infant, shouldn't it be equally unacceptable to remove the prepuce from a male infant?

There are several difference between male circumcisions and female circumcisions.
First, the time frame in which the procedure is preformed. Male - typically at 24-48hrs of age. Female - typically 5-8yo. (but can vary depending on the traditions)
Next the location of the procedure. Male - hospital environment, sterile conditions. Most use some form of local anesthetic. Female - done in local community (unless the family has enough money to go to the hospital), non sterile, often no anesthetic and requires other family members to restrain the girl.
Finally, longterm implications. Male - less sensitivity with intercourse. Female - psychological impact, sexuality issues/pain on initiation of intercourse, adverse obstetric outcomes

Info on female circumcisioin/FGM:
World Health Organization

I'm not saying that male circumsion is ok (and in fact, if I had a male child, I would most likely decline the circ)... but comparing it to female genital mutilation is NOT apples to apples.

The differences in age and environment that you cite are significant but also not an apples to apples comparison. Additionally, FGM is a category, not a specific procedure. Even the WHO article above categorizes FGM-I as removal of the prepuce, clitoris, or both. Given how many women elect to have their hood pierced (and some specifically get it trimmed), would you say that removal of the clit and removal of the hood are comparable levels of mutilation? That's like saying that removal of the male prepuce and amputation of the head are essentially the same.

So...IF the clitoral hood (not clitoris) were trimmed at 24-48 hours of age in a sterile environment would that have similar psychological effects or obstetric correlations (specifically picked word)? If males were circumcised at 5-8 years old in non-sterile environments, do you think there would be psychological trauma or correlating increased health risks? And either way, all this talk about circumcision not being FGM is absurd...it's MGM.
Male - given, it's a penis
Genital - given, it's a penis
Mutilation - absolutely def: to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts

You're the doc and I'm not. Would you agree that the prepuces of both genders are kinda similar (folds of skin that cover/protect the glans more when unaroused than aroused)? Does your gut tell you that removal of them under similar circumstances (age and environment) would likely produce comparable (though obviously not identical) outcomes?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kbordson 8]

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And either way, all this talk about circumcision not being FGM is absurd...it's MGM.

You're the doc and I'm not. Would you agree that the prepuces of both genders are kinda similar (folds of skin that cover/protect the glans more when unaroused than aroused)? Does your gut tell you that removal of them under similar circumstances (age and environment) would likely produce comparable (though obviously not identical) outcomes?

I've already said that I would most likely NOT have a male child of mine circed - that there gives my opinion of the procedure. But... as a doctor (since you felt the need to bring that up), the FGM has so many other issues that a male circ does not. They are two seperate procedures. Two very different situations. NOT apples to apples.

[skinnyshrek 0]

i couldnt get circumsized lose 3 inches of gurth

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[SpeedRacer 1]

I don't understand people in this thread who are trying to swap male and female circumcision as being the same thing.

The study showed that in
Africa, circumcision of MALES reduced the likelihood of HIV infection by 50%.

WTF is up with all this background noise?? female circumcision was not examined in this study!

Fuck all the PC bullshit!! Fucking think what you want, but stick to the topic!

Speed Racer
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[bazelos 0]

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I suppose whether or not it's cosmetic surgery is open to interpretation. Purely physically it is, but for a lot of people circumcision has religious significance. They would probably tell you it's more than cosmetic. And if that's what god wants, then it's not up to the individual at all.

The reason that circumcision started is because both Jews and Arabs (I don't really understand how it became a trend in the US...) where nomadic people, so they didn't have access to baths at any given time. Instead of someone explaining this to them, he simply said that God wants them to do it. That was a valid cause, yes, but in today's world, where we have soap and water, there's really no need.

He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man.

[wildcard451 0]

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I suppose whether or not it's cosmetic surgery is open to interpretation. Purely physically it is, but for a lot of people circumcision has religious significance. They would probably tell you it's more than cosmetic. And if that's what god wants, then it's not up to the individual at all.

The reason that circumcision started is because both Jews and Arabs (I don't really understand how it became a trend in the US...) where nomadic people, so they didn't have access to baths at any given time. Instead of someone explaining this to them, he simply said that God wants them to do it. That was a valid cause, yes, but in today's world, where we have soap and water, there's really no need.

I'll tell you the real reason when I am not so hung over that my head will explode...

[Erroll 80]

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If males were circumcised at 5-8 years old in non-sterile environments, do you think there would be psychological trauma or correlating increased health risks?

Ironically, in South Africa (and many other African counties) many males die as a direct result of circumcision during traditional initiations .

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In South Africa, every year, young abakwetha (Xhosa: male initiates) are hospitalised or die from circumcision wounds undergone during traditional initiation rites. Ritual circumcision¹ under some circumstances can put young men at risk of contracting STDs, HIV/AIDS and other blood-borne infections. Countering this, new epidemiological research demonstrates that circumcised men carry a lower risk of contracting HIV than uncircumcised men. Merely from the above, it is indisputable that ritual male circumcision is a cultural issue that is complexly linked to public health.

[Skyrad 0]

Ritual circumcision in South Africa can hardly be compared to clinical circumsion in a sterile enviroment.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Clearly you've never seen a womans genitalia post FMG. There is no way a comparison between FMG and male circumsicion can be made.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[livendive 8]

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Clearly you've never seen a womans genitalia post FMG. There is no way a comparison between FMG and male circumsicion can be made.

Clearly you didn't get the gist of my point. FGM is a category of activities, kind of like assault is a category of crimes. Removal of the hood and removal of the clit are not the same. Removal of the hood and sewing the vagina shut are not the same. Removal of the prepuce shrouding the glans is a specific type of activity, rather than a category, and can be performed on either gender. I'm saying that the specific type of activity is comparable whether performed on a male or a female IF performed under similar conditions (age of child, sterility of environment, etc). However one is included in the category of FGM while the other cannot possibly be because it's excluded at the letter F (it involves male genitals rather than female). Answer this simple question. Is removal of the prepuce that enshrouds the glans genital mutilation? That is, does it include permanently altering or disfiguring the genitals? I'd say yes. Thus when performed on a female, it's female genital mutilation and when performed on a male it's male genital mutilation. However one is considered socially acceptable and the other is not. Why is that?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[freeflybella 0]

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I don't really understand how it became a trend in the US...

There are alot of theories - one being to prevent masturbation in puritanical society!

The penis, when uncut, is self lubricating. This smegma that everyone is so afraid of is the same thing that keeps a woman's genitalia moist.

Cut penises are dry and have diminished sensitivity.

Before I had my son, I thought I'd circ him. After researching and viewing circumcisions I am a strong advocate against it.

Fewer and fewer people, when faced with the realities of what they are actually doing to their little boys, are choosing to circumcise.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[downwardspiral 0]

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Male - less sensitivity with intercourse.

This alone makes me happy that I was cut.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Erroll 80]

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Ritual circumcision in South Africa can hardly be compared to clinical circumsion in a sterile enviroment.

I was not attempting to draw a comparison. I was simply responding to Dave's post about circumcisions in non-sterile environments.

[Beverly 1]

It is amazing how everyone misses the point here.

Celibacy will reduce the rate of infection of HIV.
Education will reduce the rate of infection of HIV.
Lower crime (Rape) will reduce the rate of infection of HIV.

Jeez, being cut or not has no bearing on the fact that traditionally young men in Africa (tribal) only get circumcised when they "come of age" it is a joke, they are sexually active long before that.
So many die every year by being hacked by some witch doctor in the name of tradition.

HIV and Aids infection is far higher than anyone can imagine.

What can help : Stop shagging, stop producing HIV+ children and then leaving aids orphans for everyone else to look after after they die.

Circumcision?? What a waste of money spent on that study!

I think true friendship is under-rated

Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa

[SpeedRacer 1]

hmm, I think the vast majority of Africans who get circumcised have it done when they're babies, and by a doctor, same as here.

the tribal circumcision still gets done, but I'd guess it would be a small minority. and often the "coming of age" ritual happens when the boys are still pretty young.

Speed Racer
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[kaerodyne 0]

http://www.noharmm.org/mandela.htm

Just do a google search for the subject and you'll be amazed at the amount of young traditional/african boys dying each year.

Also

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4371384.stm

People need to understand that HIV AIDS is a rampant killer in Africa and the World ... many people who are positive are not aware of their status .... be safe people, be true and get tested.