billvon 2,991 #51 July 13, 2009 >Oh, the good old, automotive example again. Sorry, it has nothing to > do with aviation. You have the same issue at airports with a lot of traffic in the pattern. At an uncontrolled airport it can be very nerve-wracking to be behind a very small aircraft flying his approach slowly; we were reminded to keep our speeds up on final to avoid having everyone behind us having to slow down. (Can't pass people in most patterns.) At controlled airports you have the benefit of a tower telling people to maintain reasonable speeds on final. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #52 July 13, 2009 You are so right. I was on final approach years ago at Sidney NY with a Cessna 172 and suddenly I heard a strange noise. A twin engine aircraft was overtaking me from bellow. He sure didn't see me and I never saw him either.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeJD 0 #53 July 24, 2009 QuoteQuoteTrue, but bad habits are hard to break. Best not to develop them in the first place. The problem is that when you are learning you will misjudge your approach sometimes. Sometimes you will be too low/the wind will be stronger than you thought and you will be short, but sometimes you will be higher/wind will be be less than you thought and you will be too long. Agreed, but as per my earlier post I really think newer jumpers are far more likely to be too long than too short, because nobody has given them the confidence or the proper training to fly a predictable rectangular pattern - they're not comfortable heading away from the target. By positioning themselves just downwind of the landing point and then S-turning, or spiralling, or sitting on brakes, they think they are 'playing it safe', without realising the menace they're causing to those approaching from further out. So I think it's mainly an education issue. Too often the only canopy skills that are taught are those required to get you on the ground where you want to be. Flying in traffic requires a lot more discipline and awareness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #54 July 25, 2009 Quote..because nobody has given them the confidence or the proper training to fly a predictable rectangular pattern Confidence is one thing, and I'll get to that in a minute. Training is another. While I think that the pattern training may be an issue, I think it's only an issue at a very few DZs throughout the country. For example, some DZs RELY on the radio assistance. Confidence? Hmmmmm...try as we might, we cannot magically instill confidence in a student. He has to gain it through experience. QuoteBy positioning themselves just downwind of the landing point and then S-turning, or spiralling, or sitting on brakes, they think they are 'playing it safe', without realising the menace they're causing to those approaching from further out. All too true. Some DZs and some instructors actually teach them to do all that not-so-good stuff. Personally, it grinds my shorts when I hear an AFFI telling a student to do S-turns in the landing pattern. QuoteSo I think it's mainly an education issue. Too often the only canopy skills that are taught are those required to get you on the ground where you want to be. Flying in traffic requires a lot more discipline and awareness. I'm not having a problem with the education/training process right now. The traffic issue is one reason why we put the students out after all the other fun jumpers. They will, in most cases, be down and out of the student's way by the time the student has to land. Discipline and awareness is developed through experience. Let's be real...we cannot teach everything there is to know about canopy flight to a new student. So, we teach them the basics that will, yes, get them down safely. We can tell them what to do and make them aware of safety issues but they'll have to develop it through experience. Fortunately, some pick it up quickly. Unfortunately, some don't.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeJD 0 #55 July 25, 2009 Popsjumper, agree with everything you said. I think we're slightly at cross purposes because by 'newer jumpers' I mean (as I failed to make clear in my post) not students, but those with relatively low experience - let's say people with 100 jumps. Load organisers and fellow canopy pilots won't make any special allowances for them, but very often I see them continuing to fly in the way I've described simply because it's all they know. You can be off student status with only a handful of canopy flights under your belt, and as you rightly say it's unrealistic to expect you to have learned much up to that point. We take care to teach people further freefall skills (not least effective tracking!) before we let them go and jump with others - but I don't remember anyone coaching me further in the fine art of sharing the sky with other people under a parachute. Since I learned originally there have been new certifications introduced in canopy handling, but these still seem to be very much focused on the individual - e.g. teaching landing accuracy, and safe high-performance landings. Given the number of accidents involving canopy collisions close to the ground, I think there's more to be done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #56 July 25, 2009 Flat turns start by pulling both toggles to quarter brakes (ear level) or half brakes (shoulder level), then pulling one toggle deeper. That keeps a canopy overhead and allows heading changes with a slower rate of descent. This was an over-simplification and should only be practiced under the supervision of a local instructor (see USPA ISP for a more detailed explanation). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #57 July 25, 2009 Then more DZs should follow USPA's ISP and gradually teach more advanced canopy skills (rear riser turns, rear riser flares, front riser turns, front riser turns, etc.) as junior jumpers accumulate more jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #58 July 25, 2009 QuoteI always figured students kinda learned backward. .......................................................................... Funny! I have been getting great results "chaining" landing patterns backwards. A long time ago, I concluded that the complete landing pattern is more than most junior jumpers (2 to 20 jumps) can grasp in one lecture ... ... so I teach them landing patterns by chaining backwards (with a series of leading questions) from touch down. Instructor "Where do you want to land?" Student "In the middle of that field." Instructor "What are the winds doing?" Student "Winds are light from the West." Instructor "Which direction do you want to face when you touch down? Student "West" Instructor "Which land mark do you want to be over at 300 feet?" Student "The middle of that fence." Instructor "Which landmark do you want to be over at 600 feet?" Student "I want to be over the corner of that fence at 600 feet." Instructor "Good! Which landmark do you want to be over at 900 feet? Student "I want to start my landing pattern at 900 over the corner of the runways." Instructor "Good! Now chain that forward for me." Student "I want to be over the corner of the runways at 900 feet, then turn East, etc.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dickandsandy 0 #59 July 26, 2009 I told my sad story about a bad jump, I didn't tell the second half: I was knocked out and came to @ 2K remarkably right where i was supposed to be west of the 15 acre landing filed -kudos to the pilot. Per instruction, I found my toggles and S'd down to 1K and headed for the field; again, per training, I flew it down to 300'. I did two 90's and headed back on down the field figuring if I dropped 700' in 15 acres, surely I'd drop the remaining 300' and land in the middle of the field. Wrong. I flew the whole length of the field and got to the end probably about 100' high. I hung a right and headed for the smaller 5 acre field - the dang thing wouldn't come down; i sailed past the 5 acre field and crashed into the only object for miles around in a neighbor's yard - a pile of junk wood. Not trolling; just telling my story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skymama 37 #60 July 26, 2009 QuoteDouble fronts makes a steeper approach, compared to full flight. If someone is using double fronts, at what altitude would you recommend they make sure they're back to full flight before trying to flare for their landing?She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man, because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #61 July 27, 2009 QuoteThen more DZs should follow USPA's ISP and gradually teach more advanced canopy skills (rear riser turns, rear riser flares, front riser turns, front riser turns, etc.) as junior jumpers accumulate more jumps. If only more instructors would take this to heart and actually DO it....what a wonderful world it would be.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base283 0 #62 July 27, 2009 Prepare to PLF. It is too late in the game for anything else. Keeping one's options open also applies to canopy parking. Take care, space Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #63 July 27, 2009 QuoteQuoteDouble fronts makes a steeper approach, compared to full flight. If someone is using double fronts, at what altitude would you recommend they make sure they're back to full flight before trying to flare for their landing? You gently return the risers to full flight at an altitude that allows the canopy to swing through the natural recovery arc before reaching the ground. This depends upon many factors: - how deeply you pull down on the risers - how long you held double fronts - your canopy type - your WL - density altitude Your velocity (speed and direction), when you gently return the risers to full flight, depends upon how deeply you pull them down and how long you hold them down. Your canopy type determines the type of recovery arc (long, medium, short) Increasing WL will increase the recovery arc with all else being equal. Increasing Denisty Altitude (DA) will increase the recovery arc with all else being equal. There is no one answer to your question, except that you want to be through the recovery arc before reaching the ground. Attached are 2 graphs from a simulation code I have for natural recovery. The point (0,0) is the entry point of the natural recovery. That is the place where you gently return the controls to full flight. The initial velocity on both graphs and all trajectories is the same. The first graph is for DA=0 ft and the 2nd is for DA=5K ft. Each graph has trajectories for 5 different WLs. The general shape of the trajectory is the same. It has an initial steep part, then curves until it flattens out, then returns to steady state full flight. The 'flat' section is the end of the natural recovery arc. You want that to be above the ground. You can see how the altitude lost to get to the flat part changes with WL. Compare graph 1 and 2 and you can see how it changes with DA. Variations of initial velocity (speed and direction) and canopy type (L/D & Cl) will shift the trajectories around too. But enough graphs for now. The important lesson to learn are what parameters influence the natural recovery and to develop a sight picture so that you know when to enter the natural recovery by gently returning the controls to full flight. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 279 #64 July 27, 2009 Quote Attached are 2 graphs from a simulation code I have for natural recovery. Oooh, cool! That's a whole other topic, to discuss the code and its outputs. Interesting to see it is showing a less positive recovery arc at a higher wing loading, not just in distance but in shape. (That's with initial speed and equilibrium glide ratios. Is this for varying wing loading by changing the canopy size or the suspended weight?) Need to start a new thread if you are ready to present your analysis methods for everyone to critique? To go back to the original thread topic, yeah, if one is on front risers there's no way to know when to let up without experimenting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #65 July 28, 2009 Quote It used to be that S turns were exactly the response to being too high on final. Yes and we've come along way in gear and knowledge since when it "used to be". Quote The problem with S turns these days, especially at turbine drop zones, is that the jumpers behind you don't necessarily know how to fly their canopy and can't adjust to someone making S turns on final what the hell you are going to do next and don't have a motor to drive around you and don't want to compound the problem for the guy behind us. Quote Can't be touching your brakes if you want to have a high performance landing. I have no clue how HP landings got into this conversation.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #66 July 28, 2009 QuoteIf someone is using double fronts, at what altitude would you recommend they make sure they're back to full flight before trying to flare for their landing? Before they hit the ground? Seriously. This is something one needs to practice. Because of the variables involved (canopy type, weight, wind conditions, temperature, air density etc.), there is no magic number. For example, fronts for a specific number of seconds at 1000 ft., then 900 ft, then 800 ft, etc, until you get a good sight picture of the recovery requirements. You'd do the same for rear riser approaches and braked approaches as you are learning about your canopy flight and developing your skills.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #67 July 28, 2009 Quote...What's your advice to a low time jumper who finds that they are to high and running out of room...heading to trees, fences, building etc... When he finds that out, I'd be in no position to help him. I would instead, get him on the ground before he met up with that situation and teach him and have him practice: Slow flight Front riser work Rear riser work Braked turns Flare turns Flat turns The Accuracy Trick (TK Hayes has a good seminar for that) And then test his common sense and logic on how to avoid the situation in the first place. I would teach him S-turns and emphasize that they are only for do-or-die situations or for landing off alone.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites denete 3 #68 July 31, 2009 QuoteYou lose less altitude, and use less space in front of you doing it. BUT, an even more significant benefit that seems to be overlooked is that the canopy will be overhead sooner during turn recovery than with a single-toggle turn. Need to avoid a serious obstacle close to the ground? Better to have the canopy overhead when you contact the ground than to have swung out from underneath it. Or am I misguided here?SCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mmacro 0 #69 August 5, 2009 I'm no expert jumper. I love the sport, but because of family obligations I can not jump as much as I would like. IMHO: Get experienced jumpers to stop acting like taking an alternate landing as a sign of an inexperienced jumper. If a person chooses to take the alternate landing area they made a smart choice – the choice of an experienced jumper. Don’t give them a hard time. I do this all the time. I jump a slightly fast canopy for my weight and often I just prefer to set up for the BIG field on the other side of the runway at Chambersburg, PA. I’m perfectly happy to let people with more experience shoot for the “peas”. I’m glad that there jumpers are fine with my choices and don’t make me feel less of my skills. I’m getting better and one day I will be able to drive tacks when I land. Make people feel like they have to land in the “up-jumper” areas and they are more likely to make choices they will regret. 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dickandsandy 0 #59 July 26, 2009 I told my sad story about a bad jump, I didn't tell the second half: I was knocked out and came to @ 2K remarkably right where i was supposed to be west of the 15 acre landing filed -kudos to the pilot. Per instruction, I found my toggles and S'd down to 1K and headed for the field; again, per training, I flew it down to 300'. I did two 90's and headed back on down the field figuring if I dropped 700' in 15 acres, surely I'd drop the remaining 300' and land in the middle of the field. Wrong. I flew the whole length of the field and got to the end probably about 100' high. I hung a right and headed for the smaller 5 acre field - the dang thing wouldn't come down; i sailed past the 5 acre field and crashed into the only object for miles around in a neighbor's yard - a pile of junk wood. Not trolling; just telling my story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymama 37 #60 July 26, 2009 QuoteDouble fronts makes a steeper approach, compared to full flight. If someone is using double fronts, at what altitude would you recommend they make sure they're back to full flight before trying to flare for their landing?She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man, because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #61 July 27, 2009 QuoteThen more DZs should follow USPA's ISP and gradually teach more advanced canopy skills (rear riser turns, rear riser flares, front riser turns, front riser turns, etc.) as junior jumpers accumulate more jumps. If only more instructors would take this to heart and actually DO it....what a wonderful world it would be.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base283 0 #62 July 27, 2009 Prepare to PLF. It is too late in the game for anything else. Keeping one's options open also applies to canopy parking. Take care, space Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #63 July 27, 2009 QuoteQuoteDouble fronts makes a steeper approach, compared to full flight. If someone is using double fronts, at what altitude would you recommend they make sure they're back to full flight before trying to flare for their landing? You gently return the risers to full flight at an altitude that allows the canopy to swing through the natural recovery arc before reaching the ground. This depends upon many factors: - how deeply you pull down on the risers - how long you held double fronts - your canopy type - your WL - density altitude Your velocity (speed and direction), when you gently return the risers to full flight, depends upon how deeply you pull them down and how long you hold them down. Your canopy type determines the type of recovery arc (long, medium, short) Increasing WL will increase the recovery arc with all else being equal. Increasing Denisty Altitude (DA) will increase the recovery arc with all else being equal. There is no one answer to your question, except that you want to be through the recovery arc before reaching the ground. Attached are 2 graphs from a simulation code I have for natural recovery. The point (0,0) is the entry point of the natural recovery. That is the place where you gently return the controls to full flight. The initial velocity on both graphs and all trajectories is the same. The first graph is for DA=0 ft and the 2nd is for DA=5K ft. Each graph has trajectories for 5 different WLs. The general shape of the trajectory is the same. It has an initial steep part, then curves until it flattens out, then returns to steady state full flight. The 'flat' section is the end of the natural recovery arc. You want that to be above the ground. You can see how the altitude lost to get to the flat part changes with WL. Compare graph 1 and 2 and you can see how it changes with DA. Variations of initial velocity (speed and direction) and canopy type (L/D & Cl) will shift the trajectories around too. But enough graphs for now. The important lesson to learn are what parameters influence the natural recovery and to develop a sight picture so that you know when to enter the natural recovery by gently returning the controls to full flight. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #64 July 27, 2009 Quote Attached are 2 graphs from a simulation code I have for natural recovery. Oooh, cool! That's a whole other topic, to discuss the code and its outputs. Interesting to see it is showing a less positive recovery arc at a higher wing loading, not just in distance but in shape. (That's with initial speed and equilibrium glide ratios. Is this for varying wing loading by changing the canopy size or the suspended weight?) Need to start a new thread if you are ready to present your analysis methods for everyone to critique? To go back to the original thread topic, yeah, if one is on front risers there's no way to know when to let up without experimenting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #65 July 28, 2009 Quote It used to be that S turns were exactly the response to being too high on final. Yes and we've come along way in gear and knowledge since when it "used to be". Quote The problem with S turns these days, especially at turbine drop zones, is that the jumpers behind you don't necessarily know how to fly their canopy and can't adjust to someone making S turns on final what the hell you are going to do next and don't have a motor to drive around you and don't want to compound the problem for the guy behind us. Quote Can't be touching your brakes if you want to have a high performance landing. I have no clue how HP landings got into this conversation.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #66 July 28, 2009 QuoteIf someone is using double fronts, at what altitude would you recommend they make sure they're back to full flight before trying to flare for their landing? Before they hit the ground? Seriously. This is something one needs to practice. Because of the variables involved (canopy type, weight, wind conditions, temperature, air density etc.), there is no magic number. For example, fronts for a specific number of seconds at 1000 ft., then 900 ft, then 800 ft, etc, until you get a good sight picture of the recovery requirements. You'd do the same for rear riser approaches and braked approaches as you are learning about your canopy flight and developing your skills.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #67 July 28, 2009 Quote...What's your advice to a low time jumper who finds that they are to high and running out of room...heading to trees, fences, building etc... When he finds that out, I'd be in no position to help him. I would instead, get him on the ground before he met up with that situation and teach him and have him practice: Slow flight Front riser work Rear riser work Braked turns Flare turns Flat turns The Accuracy Trick (TK Hayes has a good seminar for that) And then test his common sense and logic on how to avoid the situation in the first place. I would teach him S-turns and emphasize that they are only for do-or-die situations or for landing off alone.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 3 #68 July 31, 2009 QuoteYou lose less altitude, and use less space in front of you doing it. BUT, an even more significant benefit that seems to be overlooked is that the canopy will be overhead sooner during turn recovery than with a single-toggle turn. Need to avoid a serious obstacle close to the ground? Better to have the canopy overhead when you contact the ground than to have swung out from underneath it. Or am I misguided here?SCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mmacro 0 #69 August 5, 2009 I'm no expert jumper. I love the sport, but because of family obligations I can not jump as much as I would like. IMHO: Get experienced jumpers to stop acting like taking an alternate landing as a sign of an inexperienced jumper. If a person chooses to take the alternate landing area they made a smart choice – the choice of an experienced jumper. Don’t give them a hard time. I do this all the time. I jump a slightly fast canopy for my weight and often I just prefer to set up for the BIG field on the other side of the runway at Chambersburg, PA. I’m perfectly happy to let people with more experience shoot for the “peas”. I’m glad that there jumpers are fine with my choices and don’t make me feel less of my skills. I’m getting better and one day I will be able to drive tacks when I land. Make people feel like they have to land in the “up-jumper” areas and they are more likely to make choices they will regret. IMHO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
