Seat Belts

[Hooknswoop 19]

Do you ever remove your seatbelt before you will and/or can exit the aircraft in an emergency?

If there are people between you and the door with their seatbelt on, you will have a very hard time getting to the door in an emergency.

If all engines quit, the pilot should nose over and establish best glide speed. The rate of descent will vary between aircraft and aircraft weight. If you are near the front of the aircraft, what altitude would you be at by the time you get to door, after everyone in front of you has exited? What is your minimum exit altitude?

If you have removed your seatbelt and will not be able to exit in the event all engines fail, the what? Put your seatbelt back on? Then why remove it before you can exit in the first place? At that point you are stuck in an airplane with no power and you are not wearing your seat belt.

I wouldn't expect a seat belt to save the person wearing it. I do expect the seat belt to prevent the person wearing it from killing others onboard in the event of a sudden stop.

Seat belt removal altitude should be looked at. Seems like the perfect job for USPA as a service to its members.

Derek V

[JWest 0]

The SIM seems to "recommend" 1,500 AGL.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

In order:

No.

Lower. A lot lower. A fully loaded jump plane will descend very quickly with no power.

1000'. Really. I've thought about this one a lot and discussed it quite a bit too. With both jumpers and pilots (and those who are both). Hand on the reserve handle going out the door, arch and pull. Haven't done it for real with the reserve, but "Instant H&Ps" under my main lose very little altitude - canopy opens before fully off 'the hill'.

HOWEVER...That is presuming that the pilot is ok with it, or the airplane has suffered a failure that's bad enough to make exiting necessary. If the pilot says "EVERYONE SIT WHERE YOU ARE AND DON"T MOVE AROUND!!!" then I'm doing just that. The difference between maintaining control and losing it can be a very fine line under emergency situations. I'd hate to have a "handleable" (if that's a real word) emergency, just to see it screwed up by jumpers moving around and shifting the CG (see below).

You are screwed. How much fun do we have getting belts on while loading the plane on the ground? How much more "fun" will it be under duress? We (generic "we") always stow the belts away under the floor mats to keep them from flopping/tangling. How hard does that make them to find if/when we need them?

Seat belts also keep the jumpers in place to prevent sudden CG shifts. Next time you are in a 182, watch how much control input the pilot has to make as a tandem pair moves around to hook up and get ready to go. There's a reason long time jumpers will let the pilot know when they are going to move around in a 182.

I fully agree. I really like those sorts of questions which raise more questions as the answers start to come in.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[peek 21]

Hooknswoop

Do you ever remove your seatbelt before you will and/or can exit the aircraft in an emergency?

Historically, I have, but I have been rethinking that lately, and keeping my seatbelt on longer, particularly if it would be difficult to get back on if the engine(s) failed. I often keep my hands on the hardware to remind me that it is not yet disconnected.

There are so many skydivers whiners that are so demanding that the door be opened as soon as possible after takeoff for cooling, that I don't think an altitude higher than 1000-1500 feet is practical. They are just not going to do it.

I of course make sure my seatbelt is off before such a door is opened, and I watch people's pilot chutes when I can if they are near the door.

[mr2mk1g 10]

In my experiance, everyone's ditter goes off at 1,000ft and everyone automatically starts taking their seatbelt off.

I sit there quietly and watch and attempt to see that each and every person between me and the door has taken their seatbelt off. I then take mine off - usually means that happens around 1,500ft.

If they're still strapped in and they're in my way, I might as well still have my belt on too.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I of course make sure my seatbelt is off before such a door is opened, and I watch people's pilot chutes when I can if they are near the door.

On an otte, what altitude do tandem I's remove their seat belts? What are the chances of a main or reserve PC making it out the door if you are seated up near the front of the aircraft?

The "no seat belts on with the door open" rule came from Cessna's, where everyone is near the door and it makes sense not to open the door if someone has a seat belt on. But on larger aircraft, seated away from the door, how much of a risk is it?

I often watch people take off their seat belt and wonder what they would do if the engines quit right then. Probably try and put their seat belt back on. If they fail, and it is a rough landing or a crash, they can be injured and injure others.

You can remove a seat belt quickly. You cannot attach a seat belt quickly (usually). If you still have a seat belt on in an emergency, especially f you have a hand on the buckle, you can release it and be on your way to the door very quickly.

I think the seat belt removal altitude should be dependent on the aircraft, your minimum exit altitude, and where you are seated on the aircraft. This isn't as simple as the "seat belts on until XX00 feet" sign.

The door open altitude should be based on when everyone aft of a line has their seat belt off.

Derek V

[peek 21]

Hooknswoop

On an otte, what altitude do tandem I's remove their seat belts? What are the chances of a main or reserve PC making it out the door if you are seated up near the front of the aircraft? ... The door open altitude should be based on when everyone aft of a line has their seat belt off.

I agree. I was not specific enough about what I think they should do depending on where they are in the cabin.

[fcajump 164]

Where I jump, the rule has evolved (and followed) that:

- belts are on until 1500'
- door is closed until all belts are off and helmets/gear in the rear section are checked to be secure.

Additionally, I would comment:
- I would be OK with an exit at 1500' under reserve if needed
- In the case of a major failure, the jumpers further from the door will be unlikely to still have 1500' to work with. What altitude the bail-out started is not what you need to look at, but the altitude remaining once YOU get to the door of that descending aircraft.
- Are you aware of the flight path the pilot takes? Is there rising terrain under the flight path? Do you REALLY have what your altimeter says WHERE you are when you bailout?
- The Tandems in the front of a large plane are still affected (if not more so) by the notion of a flight control problem when that door is opened at 1500' when someone (by the door) has his PC get out and wrap their canopy around the tail. If I recall correctly, their reserve/decision alt is around 2k'. Would not like to have to waddle a student to the door at 1500' in a descending aircraft... even worse if they're still belted when the whole things starts going bad. (Alright TI's... speak up... sitting in the front of a full Otter, at what altitude do you simply buckle back up and ride it down when the sport jumpers are bailing at 2k, 1500', 1k...)

Just things to think about,
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[riggerrob 643]

I typically wait until 3500 feet before un-doing my seat-belt. Then I immediately Segway into hooking up my tandem student. this is based on the notion that 4,000 feet is the minimum altitude I would bail out with a tandem student.
The last time I found my self in a failing airplane, we never climbed above 3,800 feet (?). By the time I looked at my altimeter, we were rapidly descending through 2,500 feet ... faster than I have ever seen an altimeter unwind before!
I looked at J.P. hesitating inside the closed door.
I looked at my tall tandem student.
I looked at my altimeter again 1,800 feet and decreasing rapidly ...
And concluded that there was no way I could hook on my tandem student and carry him to the door before we descended below 1,000 feet.
I gritted my teeth and waited for impact.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Rob-

The crash you were in was a major force in my re-thinking seat belt removal altitude. A jumpship with no engines running, especially a King Air, can be descending very quickly. If you have removed your seat belt at 1,000 or even 2,000 feet, you may find yourself at the door too low to exit, or trying to find and re-attach a seatbelt before impact. Neither of these sounds like fun. Simple solution, don't remove your seat belt until you are sure you will able to exit if the worst happens. Thoughts?

Derek V

[gowlerk 2,190]

Rob, I'm not up on what TC is allowing now. But a local DZ here acquired a 206P last year. It is equipped with Hooker type belts attached to a cargo tie down type rail that runs down a side wall of the fuselage. I don't know enough about Cessna construction to understand what that rail is bolted to. It was imported into Canada from Snohomish. TC allowed the installation. Progress?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[monkycndo 0]

This question is also important for WSers to think about. We often have a hard time belting in because our suits cover the most common places to connect a belt. I continue to use a 2" chest strap because that hardware has a higher rating. Depending on the type of belt, I will open my suit to try and get the belt around the MLW. But fighting the belt around the suit to get to the MLW at times just can't be done.

Once I do disconnect the belt, I keep both ends in my hands or sitting on my lap in case I do need to try and strap back in. At 3K, I drop the belt out of the way. Most of the time, I see folks dropping the belts back onto the floor along side the benches. As mentioned in a post above, the belts can be a pain to attach when sitting on the ground and you don't have the next jumper already sitting in your lap. Now try it in a hurry in the fully packed cabin with a bunch of WS fabric surrounding you.

Since we sit behind the tandems, if they aren't going, we will either have to fight our way past them or buckle back in and ride the plane down.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[mark 107]

monkycndo

I continue to use a 2" chest strap because that hardware has a higher rating.

The PS70101-1 stamped friction adapter used with wide Type-8 chest straps is rated for 500 pounds. The smaller version used with 1" Type-17 chest straps is also rated for 500 pounds. That is, they should both be okay if the G-force is in the 2-3G range.

The force required to deform or fail completely is higher, of course.

Mark

[JohnMitchell 16]

mr2mk1g

I sit there quietly and watch and attempt to see that each and every person between me and the door has taken their seatbelt off. I then take mine off - usually means that happens around 1,500ft.

If they're still strapped in and they're in my way, I might as well still have my belt on too.

Interesting take on the situation. Thanks for the perspective.
Our DZ is "seatbelts off" at 1000', even tandems.

I once did an engine out at 500' in a C182. My pilot buddy did a great job of putting it down on a dirt road without a scratch. Lucky lucky for me.

[skypuppy 1]

are you saying you exited at 500, and he landed, or you stayed in and he landed. I was once in a 182 with engine out at 600. Pilot managed to get turned around and brought it in dead stick on the runway. Happens fast when it happens...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[JohnMitchell 16]

skypuppy

are you saying you exited at 500, and he landed, or you stayed in and he landed.

All 5 jumpers and the pilot stayed with the plane.

[fcajump 164]

fcajump

Where I jump, the rule has evolved (and followed) that:

- belts are on until 1500'
- door is closed until all belts are off and helmets/gear in the rear section are checked to be secure.

Additionally, I would comment:
- I would be OK with an exit at 1500' under reserve if needed
- In the case of a major failure, the jumpers further from the door will be unlikely to still have 1500' to work with. What altitude the bail-out started is not what you need to look at, but the altitude remaining once YOU get to the door of that descending aircraft.
- Are you aware of the flight path the pilot takes? Is there rising terrain under the flight path? Do you REALLY have what your altimeter says WHERE you are when you bailout?
- The Tandems in the front of a large plane are still affected (if not more so) by the notion of a flight control problem when that door is opened at 1500' when someone (by the door) has his PC get out and wrap their canopy around the tail. If I recall correctly, their reserve/decision alt is around 2k'. Would not like to have to waddle a student to the door at 1500' in a descending aircraft... even worse if they're still belted when the whole things starts going bad. (Alright TI's... speak up... sitting in the front of a full Otter, at what altitude do you simply buckle back up and ride it down when the sport jumpers are bailing at 2k, 1500', 1k...)

[reposted to add:]
- and if anyone between you and the door is still belted... does it do you any good to have your belt off? In an failing plane, either they have to get theirs off, you have to climb over them or you have got find and reconnect yours...

Just things to think about,
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[riggerrob 643]

That sounds like after-market cargo rails in your Cessna 206. Stock Cessna 206 have seat-rails bolted to the floor.
I suspect that they bolted cargo rails to the side walls to shorten the flail arc.
If you are wondering what they are attached to, you should see bolts attaching them to bulkheads and extra doubler plates over-lapping the bolts ... sort of like the external doubler plates where they bolt on floats or skis or belly panniers for extra luggage..

Please share photos.

P.S. I mailed a package to you on Monday.

[jonstark 8]

There is a folding seat mod available for the 206 that uses cargo rails bolted to the side of the cabin for seat attachment. It's an STC from BAS or F Atlee Dodge.

Jon

[riggerrob 643]

Warning: thread drift ....
How do you stow the ends of the seatbelt (before opening the door)?

Has any one tried magnets?

Do magnets work on stainless steel belt buckles?

Do you attach magnets to the air frame or floor mat?

[ufk22 33]

I generally keep my belt on til about 5000'.
Exception would be me near an open door, but if I'm away from the door and back to the wall, I'll still leave it on.
I grew up in this sport in the "seatbelts are for sissies" days. My first skyvan load was me on the open tailgate hanging on to the belt because No One would consider actually putting it on.
Now, what's the point of getting it off early?????

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[fcajump 164]

riggerrob

Warning: thread drift ....
How do you stow the ends of the seatbelt (before opening the door)?

Has any one tried magnets?

Do magnets work on stainless steel belt buckles?

Do you attach magnets to the air frame or floor mat?

The places I've jumped...
In Cessnas they are typically shoved under the floor mats.
In Otters they are simply shoved away from the door.

In both cases they are left unfastened (to remove the loop/snag problem).

What I'm curious about is this... in the Otter situation, where they are simply set along the edge of the floor away from the door, is it better for the hardware to be at the stops (all the way out) or all the way to the mount point, or does it matter? (I've heard disagreements, but little reason for either)

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[riggerrob 643]

When you fully tighten the belts, it reduces the flail arc for hardware, but the overall length is still the same. IOW a soft strap end might still beat the paint off the the outside of the airplane, but will make fewer dents than a metal buckle.
OTOH leaving belts short slows the boarding and belting process process and gives people an excuse not to wear belts.
The second-best solution to short belts is having the first jumper on board straightening out all the seat belts before he sits down.

If you give skydivers an inch, they will take a mile.

Trust me, the bottom of a dog-pile is not a pleasant place!

[jclalor 12]

wolfriverjoe

In order:

No.

Lower. A lot lower. A fully loaded jump plane will descend very quickly with no power.

1000'. Really. I've thought about this one a lot and discussed it quite a bit too. With both jumpers and pilots (and those who are both). Hand on the reserve handle going out the door, arch and pull. Haven't done it for real with the reserve, but "Instant H&Ps" under my main lose very little altitude - canopy opens before fully off 'the hill'.

HOWEVER...That is presuming that the pilot is ok with it, or the airplane has suffered a failure that's bad enough to make exiting necessary. If the pilot says "EVERYONE SIT WHERE YOU ARE AND DON"T MOVE AROUND!!!" then I'm doing just that. The difference between maintaining control and losing it can be a very fine line under emergency situations. I'd hate to have a "handleable" (if that's a real word) emergency, just to see it screwed up by jumpers moving around and shifting the CG (see below).

You are screwed. How much fun do we have getting belts on while loading the plane on the ground? How much more "fun" will it be under duress? We (generic "we") always stow the belts away under the floor mats to keep them from flopping/tangling. How hard does that make them to find if/when we need them?

Seat belts also keep the jumpers in place to prevent sudden CG shifts. Next time you are in a 182, watch how much control input the pilot has to make as a tandem pair moves around to hook up and get ready to go. There's a reason long time jumpers will let the pilot know when they are going to move around in a 182.

I fully agree. I really like those sorts of questions which raise more questions as the answers start to come in.

This is what's nice about jumping in lodi; these questions never come up.

[rehmwa 2]

JohnMitchell

Our DZ is "seatbelts off" at 1000', even tandems.

open door is a hazard - pilot chute can escape, someone can fall out or have to bail out, so treating it cavalierly is a bit silly

another posted a policy of 1500
something worth considering I guess


a couple things:

1 - no reason to open the door unless one is comfortable exiting. I don't care if the staff is getting hot. I don't open the door until I am also comfy if I have to exit for any reason. Let's call that 2000 grand? But then absolutely let's open it then. (just not lower). I guess emergency bailout on reserve is also fine, so call it 1500 or 1000 if one likes, but that takes away margin if multiple people would have to leave - I prefer out on the main canopy defining my comfy zone for 'air conditioning' instead of a policy that ensures only 1 or 2 people get to survive a worst case scenario (pilot escapes, body rips off tail of plane).

2 - no reason to take off seatbelts for the same reason

3 - no reason to open the door until those near the door are unbuckled. So once you hit that critical altitude, check that those near the door are unbuckled, then open the door.... the rest of the plane can do what they want.

'cracking the door' to cool off the airplane - seriously......so there is room for a pilot chute to escape but not a body.....please

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants