Seat Belts

[Remster 30]

For reference, SDAZ's rule has been helmets on or secured, seatbelts on, and door closed till 1500' for a couple years now.

Remster

[billvon 3,006]

>I prefer out on the main canopy defining my comfy zone for 'air conditioning' instead
>of a policy that ensures only 1 or 2 people get to survive a worst case scenario (pilot
>escapes, body rips off tail of plane).

That's one side of the argument. The other side is that if you have a catastrophic problem at 1500 feet (prop throws a blade and the engine/wing depart) then if the door is open a few people might make it out alive - if the door is closed, likely no one will.

> no reason to open the door until those near the door are unbuckled. So once you
>hit that critical altitude, check that those near the door are unbuckled, then open the
>door.... the rest of the plane can do what they want.
>'cracking the door' to cool off the airplane - seriously.

Agreed with all of that.

>Let's call that 2000 grand?

wow, I've never even been above 31 grand.

[JohnMitchell 16]

Good points all. I know SDAZ is 1500'. I don't set policy at my DZ, just go by it. I have done 1000' exits before, but not with an AAD. I'd almost definitely use my reserve that low these days.

Door cracked just a foot? I know what you mean, plenty of room for a pilot chute, not enough room for a person. Everyone check your handles after the seatbelts come off but before the door opens.

[Remster 30]

Quote

Door cracked just a foot? I know what you mean, plenty of room for a pilot chute, not enough room for a person.

I'm not advocating doing it, but on many planes (Twin Otter for sure) air flow from a cracked open sliding door is INTO the plane, not out. So lets not use that as a reason to keep the door closed.

Remster

[rehmwa 2]

billvon

That's one side of the argument. The other side is that if you have a catastrophic problem at 1500 feet (prop throws a blade and the engine/wing depart) then if the door is open a few people might make it out alive - if the door is closed, likely no one will.

yeah,,,,,THAT's why the tandem masters yell for the door to open right after takeoff......But I appreciate your ability to try to find alternate views on subject....

Quote

>Let's call that 2000 grand?

wow, I've never even been above 31 grand.

whoops

Remster

I'm not advocating doing it, but on many planes (Twin Otter for sure) air flow from a cracked open sliding door is INTO the plane, not out. So lets not use that as a reason to keep the door closed.

I don't really know where to start with this comment without being snarky, I'll let better writers answer for me and thanks for a good discussion point.

(Derek - sorry for the slight derail)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[riggerrob 643]

Tandem instructors get paid to sweat.
Professional TIs sit quietly until they are high enough to deploy reserves.
Trivial point, the Strong manual says that tandem students must be attached to their TI any time the door is open.

[rehmwa 2]

riggerrob

Tandem instructors get paid to sweat.
Professional TIs sit quietly until they are high enough to deploy reserves.

thank you for that, but I won't go that far...

I think a good professional is also conscious of the comfort of his customer, so I'm good with a reminder and the request......I just think that safety is higher on the priorities.

So asking for it is just fine. Reminding those at the door is absolutely fine too. Complaining that it's not open NOW at some low altitude and continuing to complain - that's when we cross out of professionalism and just become whiners. (we can reference when people scream 'get out' as another example of good ways to make a horrible customer experience).

If I want the "A/C" on climb up. I wait for what I consider a safe altitude. Then I call for the guy sitting there and get eye contact. Then I smile and indicate raising the door. It's totally different that shouting rudely and gets a much better response.

If I'm the guy at the door and someone asks for it. I'll smile back, point at my altimeter and tell them no problem, door up at ____ Feet. Only rarely has someone shouted "do it NOW" - then they get ignored for the rest of the day.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[riggerrob 643]

"... Only rarely has someone shouted "do it NOW" - then they get ignored for the rest of the day."

....................................................................................

Ignorance: the mark of a quiet professional.

I must remember that technique.

[Hooknswoop 19]

from the Dubai Caravan crash thread, ufk22;

"Not saying this should be a general rule, but certainly something to think about.
At 90 mph, with 14/1 glide, altitude loss would be about 600'/ minute.
Engine out at 2500', plane at 1300' in two minutes, assuming instant reconfigure for max glide. i don't have a problem with low altitude exit, old school and S/L training.
I'm sure you wouldn't either.
But...
How many people get on the plane "ready to jump"?
Cleaning out a plane in a minute or less during practice is one thing. Confusion, multiple people trying to talk, disciple not to rush the door, hesitation by those who aren't comfortable with low exit, students, tandems, etc.
Just saying... "

The caravan is one of the best gliding jumpships in use today. Engine out at 2,500 feet and no time to exit. If seat belts were off at 1,500, then if the engine quits between 1,500 and 2,500 feet AGL, then the jumpers are trying to reconnect seat belts during descent.

I think seat belts should not be removed before an altitude is reached where an emergency exit is possible.

Why remove your seat belt only to reconnect it if there is a problem?

Derek V

[totter 2]

Hey Rob,

It depends on the grade of stainless. Most aren't magnetic.

But the friction locks inside the clasp and on the blade halves are made of steel.
So these would make the buckles magnetic regardless of the material used for the bodies.

[riggerrob 643]

I tested some magnets on Cessna seatbelt buckles and they were strong enough to prevent the buckles from blowing out the door.
The magnets were one inch diameter, similar to those used in riser covers.

[riggerrob 643]

Seat-belts might have prevented that Porter crash in Belgium.
The final investigation was posted on the "incidents" forum.

The problem started when the pilot decided to show off his aerobatic skills half-way to altitude. His barrel-roll was less than graceful. Because he failed to maintain positive Gs, skydivers flopped around inside the cabin and accident investigators allege that a flopping skydiver forced the pilot's head forward, jammed the electric trim button, more negative Gs tore off the left wing, etc.
The other problem created by skydivers flopping around inside the cabin is that it ruins the balance of the airplane and ruins stability and controllability.
While we can agree that aerobatics - in Porters - is a stupid practice, sometimes they mimic collision-avoidance maneuvers needed in the airport traffic pattern. The majority of mid-air collisions occur close to small airports as Sunday flyers fly where they are not looking.

One thing we can learn is that seat-belts are a good practice until you climb above pattern altitude (usually 1,000 feet above ground level).

[Baksteen 84]

Generally speaking, you have a point. No argument ther.

However, if the barrel roll was initiated halfway to altitude, seat belts would've been disconnected already.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[kallend 2,027]

I have flown aerobatics in several planes that were properly certified for such. Each of them had a multi-point harness. Lots of fun.

Regarding the Porter crash...

The Pilatus PC-6’s first version had been certified by the Federal Office for
Civil Aviation (FOCA) of Switzerland in December 1959, under the Type
Certificate reference F 56-10. The aircraft complies with the US Civil Air
Regulations, Part 3 (US CAR3) as a normal category aeroplane. PC-6 is not
approved for aerobatics manoeuvres.


If I, as a jumper, were told ahead of time that the pilot would be performing aerobatics in the jump plane on the way to altitude, I would have taken myself off the load.

If already in the air and the pilot announced "I am now going to perform a roll", I would (a) ask if I could exit before this happened, and if not possible, (b) make damn sure my seat belt was fastened tightly, although a simple lap belt is not appropriate for aerobatics.

Do we know if the barrel roll was pre-announced, or was it a surprise?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

And to add to the Professor's comments:

If I was on a jump plane and an unannounced barrel roll took place, the pilot DZO and I would be having a fairly unpleasant conversation after I got back on the ground.

"What the fuck does he think he's doing?" Would be the main point.

Aerobatics in an unapproved airplane, with paying passengers on board?

"Unacceptable", "Illegal", "Dangerous", "Stupid" are all words that only start to describe this kind of behavior.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[riggerrob 643]

Forget the fancy "illegal" and "unapproved" language ....
... Because few jump planes are strong enough for aerobatics.

Standard category and transport category airplanes trade structural strength for greater cargo (skydiver) capacity.

Also remember that few jump-planes are certified for intention stalls and spins. Stalls and spins frequently occurr on the bottom end of poorly planned aerobatics.
Poorly planned aerobatics often start with failing to secure loose objects on the cabin. Failing to secure loose skydivers pretty much guarantees that your weight and balance will fall out the back end of the envelope. Not even the worlds' best test pilot can recover (unstall or unspin) an unbalanced airplane.

[tkhayes 348]

I guess it is still too much for skydivers to ask for a safe ride to altitude in a well-maintained airplane by a competent pilot.

Likely this is not the first time that such 'fun maneuvers' have been done at the same location or by the same pilot. Blame goes all the way to the management and owners as well as the pilot. The cultures that allow this are all too evident in skydiving and other industries as well. It needs to be dealt with early and corrected or eliminated.

Flying jumpers is a boring job. get used to it. That is the best case scenario we can all hope for....boing. So many instances in the last decades of such behavior. Nothing i like more than someone playing 'tricks' with the million dollar asset.

[riggerrob 643]

Yeah!
Whatever TK said!

That pilot had previously been disciplined (by airport management) for low fly-bye at day's end.

[virgin-burner 1]

fly-by's are awesome!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[WMO 0]

Very well stated. Whether the door is closed or open, and your proximity to an open door, are also important issues.
Another issue is the configuration of the belts, standard two part belt around the pelvis, or some "modern" iteration interlaced through the jumper's harness.

Quote

• Quote

[riggerrob 643]

Then we get into a rousing debate about why we keep seat-belts attached to what altitude??? 1,000 feet, 1,200, 1,500, 2,000, etc.?

Do we keep them on until after the first engine power reduction (varies with engine, pilot, etc.) because it is the second most likely time for the engine to quit?
Do we keep belts on until above pattern altitude (1,000 feet AGL), because is the most likely altitude for a mid-air collision?
Do we keep seat-belts on until we are high enough to bail-out and deploy solo reserves (1,000 feet)?
Do we wait until we are high enough for tandems to deploy reserves (2,000 feet)?