RiggerLee 61 #1 March 6, 2007 This is going to be a big issue. Sunpath has taken a firm stand on the RSL issue. This leaves many jumpers in a bind as their RSL was removed and possable discarded lond ago. For some people this happened long before they purchesed thier rig used. There is of course an out. If you can find a Master Rigger willing to sign this off as an alteration then you can continue to jump the rig. Now here's the catch. Sun Path has very clearly stated their position on this. Read there original written responce to here: http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2681081;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; It's about half way down the page. It makes very clear what their responce will be in the event of an accedent. Any one signing off on this alteration does so against their strongest recamendation. When the court case comes up they will leave any one doing so hanging out to dry. So here's the deal. If you are a Master Rigger you can legaly do this but they are forceing you to accept all responceablity and liability. I can't think of another instance where a manufacteror has done any thing like this. We are haveing a hard time finding any one willing to sign off rigs around here. Who out there is willing to do this. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #2 March 6, 2007 Oh, and will any one sign mine off? I jump a Javelin and I'm grounded by this too? LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #3 March 6, 2007 I'm not a rigger, but I can see why is that a big deal. In my point of view its just a legal-bureaucratic mambo-jumbo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #4 March 6, 2007 Could a Master Rigger help shield themselves by signing off the modification, and having the user sign a liability release?"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #5 March 6, 2007 Don't bother. It's an FAA stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packertom 0 #6 March 6, 2007 I don't see why a master rigger couldn't have a liability release done... it works at dropzones... having said that, the letter that sunpath put out states that they strongly recommend that you leave it on and if something were to happen and you signed off on an RSL and you go to court, I can hear the lawyer saying... "but the manufacturer thought this was a bad idea, are you smarter than the manufacturer? why did you ignore their warnings... by the way, how much is your house worth? just joking a bit on that , but it demonstrates a point. a liability release probably is a good idea. Tom Tom@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.comtom@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com What's YOUR Zombie Plan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hunters 0 #7 March 6, 2007 I'd be happy to. Manufactures sell you car covers, riggers make them legal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #8 March 6, 2007 I have found one to sign off on mine. No big deal to him.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #9 March 6, 2007 QuoteDon't bother. It's an FAA stuff. Don't bother with what, reading comprehension? It isn't just FAA stuff. It also involves liability in civil court "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chutejump 0 #10 March 6, 2007 The catch is for the Master Rigger to be "legally" able to sign this off he must obtain permission to alter from orginal configuration from the manufacture of the assembly (which Sunpath I'm sure will not issue) or the respresentative of the administrator of the FAA, If the Master Rigger just does this on his own without this premission to alter and something were to occur, his ass is "all" the way hanging out! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggergreg 0 #11 March 6, 2007 They have already given permission for a Master Rigger to remove the RSL by saying they are the only ones allowed to remove it. Whats the problem?? As long as a master rigger removes the RSL, or documents that the RSL has been removed correctly, It is legal to jump, pack, etc. Oh, and it is an alteration, not a modification.. If they had not wanted it done, Then they should say NO ONE MAY REMOVE THE RSL. They did not nuff said Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chutejump 0 #12 March 7, 2007 QuoteQuoteThey have already given permission for a Master Rigger to remove the RSL by saying they are the only ones allowed to remove it. Whats the problem?? As long as a master rigger removes the RSL, or documents that the RSL has been removed correctly, It is legal to jump, pack, etc. Oh, and it is an alteration, not a modification.. Yes! and as a master rigger what must you have in hand that enables you to alter or modify a system from its manufactured configuration? Authorization (in writing) from the representative of the FAA or the Manufacture. The bulletin issued from Sunpath states that they "Strongly" advise against removal or disconnecting the RSL System. First I do not consider this bulletin to represent an authorization issued to myself to allow me personally as the master rigger to change this system when the same document "Strongly" advises against it. How do I justify my decision for removal in a court of law when I have been left out in the cold with the wording of the bulletin? So I am left to justify on my own behalf these considered exceptions that are mentioned? These exceptions are not named or identified which leaves the barn door open for interpertation. Smells of the saying scape goat! Just my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggergreg 0 #13 March 7, 2007 QuoteYes! and as a master rigger what must you have in hand that enables you to alter or modify a system from its manufactured configuration? Authorization (in writing) from the representative of the FAA or the Manufacture. The bulletin issued from Sunpath states that they "Strongly" advise against removal or disconnecting the RSL System. [Sun Path Products, Inc. position on the removal of the RSL components remains unchanged. “Permanent removal of this part is highly discouraged and NOT recommended”. However we do acknowledge situations that the user may wish to have the RSL components removed from the system or not have the system installed with the components at all. Therefore this guidance should serve as reference for fielded systems as well as new assemblies.] [2. Can any or all of the RSL components (RSL lanyard, hook Velcro on reserve riser, guide rings on pin flap and main riser RSL ring) be removed from a Javelin/Javelin Odyssey without voiding the TSO. YES, however the FAA determines this to be an “alteration”. This means that only a master parachute rigger can perform this action. (Ref. AC105-2c) Once the master rigger removes the requested RSL components, the alteration must be noted on both the packing data card and the master parachute riggers log book.] Sounds like permission to me, but use your own judgement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #14 March 7, 2007 Quote[Sun Path Products, Inc. position on the removal of the RSL components remains unchanged. “Permanent removal of this part is highly discouraged and NOT recommended”. However we do acknowledge situations that the user may wish to have the RSL components removed from the system or not have the system installed with the components at all. Therefore this guidance should serve as reference for fielded systems as well as new assemblies.] [2. Can any or all of the RSL components (RSL lanyard, hook Velcro on reserve riser, guide rings on pin flap and main riser RSL ring) be removed from a Javelin/Javelin Odyssey without voiding the TSO. YES, however the FAA determines this to be an “alteration”. This means that only a master parachute rigger can perform this action. (Ref. AC105-2c) Once the master rigger removes the requested RSL components, the alteration must be noted on both the packing data card and the master parachute riggers log book.] I am a bit confused over all this. It sound slike they define the removal of the RSL, rings, and Velcro as an alteration, requiring a Master rigger. I'm OK there. Quotethe user may wish to have the RSL components removed To me, this again sounds like all the RSL components, not just the actual RSL. What Sun Path doesn't spell out is the very common removal of the RSL and covering the Velcro with loop Velcro. I also keep thinking if Sun Path said that for the TSO to be valid you must wear a pink and blue polka dotted jumpsuit while jumping a Javelin, how much legal weight would that carry? The FAA defines what is legal and what is not, not the manufacturer. In short, I am confused about all this. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chutejump 0 #15 March 7, 2007 8. PARACHUTE ALTERATIONS. Parachute alterations are changes to the FAA-approved configuration. Examples include installation of reenforcement tape or fittings, alteration of the harness such as changing the size, removal of a manufacturer-installed part, or the installation of an AAD on an auxiliary/reserve parachute system in which the manufacturer does not authorize such installation. a. An alteration to an approved parachute system used for intentional jumping must be done in accordance with approved manuals and specifications and only by those with specific authorization to perform that alteration. Specific approval is not needed for the method of altering a main parachute. A person seeking authorization to alter an approved parachute system should proceed as follows: (1) A person qualified to alter a parachute (as listed below) should contact his/her local FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) inspector to discuss the proposed alteration. The applicant should be prepared to show the inspector the nature of the alteration by using a sample assembly, sketch or drawing, and be prepared to discuss the nature of the tests that will be needed to show the altered parachute meets all applicable requirements. (2) The inspector will review the proposal with the applicant, and a plan of action will be agreed upon. (3) The applicant will then prepare an application, in letter form, addressed to the local FSDO. All pertinent data should be attached. The data should include: (i) A clear description of the alteration. (ii) Drawings, sketches, or photographs if necessary. (iii) Information such as thread size, stitch, pattern, materials used, and location of altered components. (iv) Some means of identifying the altered parachute (model and serial number). (4) When satisfied, the inspector will indicate approval by date stamping, signing, and placing the FSDO identification stamp on the letter of application. b. Alterations to Approved Parachutes may be Performed Only By: (1) A certificated and appropriately rated master parachute rigger. (2) A certificated parachute loft with an appropriate rating. (3) A parachute manufacturer. (4) Any other manufacturer that the Administrator considers to be competent. If you notice AC 105-2c makes no reference to a service bulletin and as I understand is rigger and serial number spacific and must have a per request letter with stamp of approval. We are all allowed to interpret these rules as we see fit. You choose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,072 #16 March 7, 2007 >This is going to be a big issue. The signoff part? I don't think it is. If one master rigger within 100 miles of a given DZ is willing to do it, all the Javelins will eventually get signed off one way or another. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites avgjoe 0 #17 March 7, 2007 QuoteThe signoff part? I don't think it is. If one master rigger within 100 miles of a given DZ is willing to do it, all the Javelins will eventually get signed off one way or another. Now just to stir the pot. If I go to one Master Rigger and He/She signs it off all is well. Now if I go somewhere else and have a ride or need a repack, can a Master Rigger pack my rig if He/She does not agree with the alteration? Will I need an RSL then? In other words, if a master rigger packs a Javelin without an RSL on another Master Riggers approval, does he/she give his tacit approval to the alteration? Are the Master riggers getting ready to be hung out? Avgjoe Hook It For Safety Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mark 107 #18 March 7, 2007 QuoteIf a master rigger packs a Javelin without an RSL on another Master Riggers approval, does he/she give his tacit approval to the alteration? Yes, although this is true for any rigger. If i return a rig to service after a repack, I am certifying it is airworthy and that previous repairs and alterations are acceptable. If I am a senior rigger, I am responsible for knowing enough to do an adequate inspection, even if I do not have the privilege of actually doing the repair or alteration I'm inspecting. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,439 #19 March 7, 2007 Hi Derek, QuoteThe FAA defines what is legal and what is not, not the manufacturer. I have to disagree with you on this. The FAA issues a TSO Authorization. This authorization allows the mfr to mark the product in accordance with the applicable TSO standard. There are also other things that a mfr must do, such as implementing the QA Program, mfg in accordance with the specifications, etc. Once the TSO authorization is issued the FAA will follow what the mfr decides is legal for his product(s). At least this has been my experience. I am comfortable with anyone who wishes to disagree with me on this. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,072 #20 March 7, 2007 >if a master rigger packs a Javelin without an RSL on another Master >Riggers approval, does he/she give his tacit approval to the alteration? As I read the bulletin, once a master rigger signs off on the modification, it can be legally packed by another master rigger or a senior rigger with no further fuss. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #21 March 7, 2007 I didn't see any mention of this yet. What will be the impact on a pilot who allows a jumper to jump a Javelin with no RSL? Are pilots supposed to check every data card now? Maybe I didn't word the question properly but you see where I'm going with this.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites klingeme 1 #22 March 7, 2007 QuoteI didn't see any mention of this yet. What will be the impact on a pilot who allows a jumper to jump a Javelin with no RSL? Are pilots supposed to check every data card now? Maybe I didn't word the question properly but you see where I'm going with this. I think they will expect manifest (who has no stake in this at all) to police it. When is the last time a pilot asked you to see your reserve card to show it being in date? These duries are normally handled at manifest. Mark Klingelhoefer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #23 March 7, 2007 True enough but that doesn't relieve the pilot of responsibility nor accountability, eh?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RiggerLee 61 #24 March 7, 2007 THIS IS A QUESTION FOR LAWYERS. The good news is that a master Rigger at our drop zone has agreed to sign off the removal of RSL's. He has already planed the wording he will use. I can't remember the exact phrase which I herd second hand but he is trying to word it in a maner to limit his liability. First what is the real exposure the a Master Rigger faces in this. Second Can some one, a lawyer fermiller with the cival laws on liability recamend a phraseing that will both meat the requirments of the letter fromm Sunpath and not put them at any more risk then nessasary. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggergreg 0 #25 March 7, 2007 I think this is really chicken sh@t of Sunpath to do it the way they have. If they want RSLs on all the rigs, just say so. The RSL was offered as an option at one time and many were built without one. What of those rigs?? No alteration was done, but they still need a master rigger to OK the airworthiness of a rig as it came off the assembly line. Say yes or no and be done with it.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
riggergreg 0 #13 March 7, 2007 QuoteYes! and as a master rigger what must you have in hand that enables you to alter or modify a system from its manufactured configuration? Authorization (in writing) from the representative of the FAA or the Manufacture. The bulletin issued from Sunpath states that they "Strongly" advise against removal or disconnecting the RSL System. [Sun Path Products, Inc. position on the removal of the RSL components remains unchanged. “Permanent removal of this part is highly discouraged and NOT recommended”. However we do acknowledge situations that the user may wish to have the RSL components removed from the system or not have the system installed with the components at all. Therefore this guidance should serve as reference for fielded systems as well as new assemblies.] [2. Can any or all of the RSL components (RSL lanyard, hook Velcro on reserve riser, guide rings on pin flap and main riser RSL ring) be removed from a Javelin/Javelin Odyssey without voiding the TSO. YES, however the FAA determines this to be an “alteration”. This means that only a master parachute rigger can perform this action. (Ref. AC105-2c) Once the master rigger removes the requested RSL components, the alteration must be noted on both the packing data card and the master parachute riggers log book.] Sounds like permission to me, but use your own judgement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #14 March 7, 2007 Quote[Sun Path Products, Inc. position on the removal of the RSL components remains unchanged. “Permanent removal of this part is highly discouraged and NOT recommended”. However we do acknowledge situations that the user may wish to have the RSL components removed from the system or not have the system installed with the components at all. Therefore this guidance should serve as reference for fielded systems as well as new assemblies.] [2. Can any or all of the RSL components (RSL lanyard, hook Velcro on reserve riser, guide rings on pin flap and main riser RSL ring) be removed from a Javelin/Javelin Odyssey without voiding the TSO. YES, however the FAA determines this to be an “alteration”. This means that only a master parachute rigger can perform this action. (Ref. AC105-2c) Once the master rigger removes the requested RSL components, the alteration must be noted on both the packing data card and the master parachute riggers log book.] I am a bit confused over all this. It sound slike they define the removal of the RSL, rings, and Velcro as an alteration, requiring a Master rigger. I'm OK there. Quotethe user may wish to have the RSL components removed To me, this again sounds like all the RSL components, not just the actual RSL. What Sun Path doesn't spell out is the very common removal of the RSL and covering the Velcro with loop Velcro. I also keep thinking if Sun Path said that for the TSO to be valid you must wear a pink and blue polka dotted jumpsuit while jumping a Javelin, how much legal weight would that carry? The FAA defines what is legal and what is not, not the manufacturer. In short, I am confused about all this. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chutejump 0 #15 March 7, 2007 8. PARACHUTE ALTERATIONS. Parachute alterations are changes to the FAA-approved configuration. Examples include installation of reenforcement tape or fittings, alteration of the harness such as changing the size, removal of a manufacturer-installed part, or the installation of an AAD on an auxiliary/reserve parachute system in which the manufacturer does not authorize such installation. a. An alteration to an approved parachute system used for intentional jumping must be done in accordance with approved manuals and specifications and only by those with specific authorization to perform that alteration. Specific approval is not needed for the method of altering a main parachute. A person seeking authorization to alter an approved parachute system should proceed as follows: (1) A person qualified to alter a parachute (as listed below) should contact his/her local FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) inspector to discuss the proposed alteration. The applicant should be prepared to show the inspector the nature of the alteration by using a sample assembly, sketch or drawing, and be prepared to discuss the nature of the tests that will be needed to show the altered parachute meets all applicable requirements. (2) The inspector will review the proposal with the applicant, and a plan of action will be agreed upon. (3) The applicant will then prepare an application, in letter form, addressed to the local FSDO. All pertinent data should be attached. The data should include: (i) A clear description of the alteration. (ii) Drawings, sketches, or photographs if necessary. (iii) Information such as thread size, stitch, pattern, materials used, and location of altered components. (iv) Some means of identifying the altered parachute (model and serial number). (4) When satisfied, the inspector will indicate approval by date stamping, signing, and placing the FSDO identification stamp on the letter of application. b. Alterations to Approved Parachutes may be Performed Only By: (1) A certificated and appropriately rated master parachute rigger. (2) A certificated parachute loft with an appropriate rating. (3) A parachute manufacturer. (4) Any other manufacturer that the Administrator considers to be competent. If you notice AC 105-2c makes no reference to a service bulletin and as I understand is rigger and serial number spacific and must have a per request letter with stamp of approval. We are all allowed to interpret these rules as we see fit. You choose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,072 #16 March 7, 2007 >This is going to be a big issue. The signoff part? I don't think it is. If one master rigger within 100 miles of a given DZ is willing to do it, all the Javelins will eventually get signed off one way or another. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
avgjoe 0 #17 March 7, 2007 QuoteThe signoff part? I don't think it is. If one master rigger within 100 miles of a given DZ is willing to do it, all the Javelins will eventually get signed off one way or another. Now just to stir the pot. If I go to one Master Rigger and He/She signs it off all is well. Now if I go somewhere else and have a ride or need a repack, can a Master Rigger pack my rig if He/She does not agree with the alteration? Will I need an RSL then? In other words, if a master rigger packs a Javelin without an RSL on another Master Riggers approval, does he/she give his tacit approval to the alteration? Are the Master riggers getting ready to be hung out? Avgjoe Hook It For Safety Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #18 March 7, 2007 QuoteIf a master rigger packs a Javelin without an RSL on another Master Riggers approval, does he/she give his tacit approval to the alteration? Yes, although this is true for any rigger. If i return a rig to service after a repack, I am certifying it is airworthy and that previous repairs and alterations are acceptable. If I am a senior rigger, I am responsible for knowing enough to do an adequate inspection, even if I do not have the privilege of actually doing the repair or alteration I'm inspecting. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,439 #19 March 7, 2007 Hi Derek, QuoteThe FAA defines what is legal and what is not, not the manufacturer. I have to disagree with you on this. The FAA issues a TSO Authorization. This authorization allows the mfr to mark the product in accordance with the applicable TSO standard. There are also other things that a mfr must do, such as implementing the QA Program, mfg in accordance with the specifications, etc. Once the TSO authorization is issued the FAA will follow what the mfr decides is legal for his product(s). At least this has been my experience. I am comfortable with anyone who wishes to disagree with me on this. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,072 #20 March 7, 2007 >if a master rigger packs a Javelin without an RSL on another Master >Riggers approval, does he/she give his tacit approval to the alteration? As I read the bulletin, once a master rigger signs off on the modification, it can be legally packed by another master rigger or a senior rigger with no further fuss. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #21 March 7, 2007 I didn't see any mention of this yet. What will be the impact on a pilot who allows a jumper to jump a Javelin with no RSL? Are pilots supposed to check every data card now? Maybe I didn't word the question properly but you see where I'm going with this.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #22 March 7, 2007 QuoteI didn't see any mention of this yet. What will be the impact on a pilot who allows a jumper to jump a Javelin with no RSL? Are pilots supposed to check every data card now? Maybe I didn't word the question properly but you see where I'm going with this. I think they will expect manifest (who has no stake in this at all) to police it. When is the last time a pilot asked you to see your reserve card to show it being in date? These duries are normally handled at manifest. Mark Klingelhoefer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #23 March 7, 2007 True enough but that doesn't relieve the pilot of responsibility nor accountability, eh?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #24 March 7, 2007 THIS IS A QUESTION FOR LAWYERS. The good news is that a master Rigger at our drop zone has agreed to sign off the removal of RSL's. He has already planed the wording he will use. I can't remember the exact phrase which I herd second hand but he is trying to word it in a maner to limit his liability. First what is the real exposure the a Master Rigger faces in this. Second Can some one, a lawyer fermiller with the cival laws on liability recamend a phraseing that will both meat the requirments of the letter fromm Sunpath and not put them at any more risk then nessasary. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggergreg 0 #25 March 7, 2007 I think this is really chicken sh@t of Sunpath to do it the way they have. If they want RSLs on all the rigs, just say so. The RSL was offered as an option at one time and many were built without one. What of those rigs?? No alteration was done, but they still need a master rigger to OK the airworthiness of a rig as it came off the assembly line. Say yes or no and be done with it.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
