gearless_chris 1 #26 March 24, 2007 I personally wouldn't cutaway under 500' even with a skyhook, just pull the reserve and hope for the best. I've never checked the altitude loss on any of my cutaways but I know the last 2 were more than 500'. My first was on a Telesis student rig, the RSL had the reserve open before I pulled the handle. The other 3 were no RSL and I waited a few seconds to pull the reserve just because it was fun."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #27 March 24, 2007 It's called a canopy transfer, and no one seems to teach it anymore.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #28 March 24, 2007 Is that where you deploy the reserve, let it inflate, steer it to the side, and then chop the main? I've heard of it but haven't had the chance to try it yet. Not that I really want to."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #29 March 24, 2007 That is a few cutaways if your profile is correct. Did you sort the problem out with your packing/equipment? I have had 2 in 3000 and my partner has had 0 in over 4700 jumps. What were your malfunctions? or are you just unlucky?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #30 March 24, 2007 The first was a tension knot on student gear that I didn't pack. The second was a very hard opening at Richmond (the only time I didn't pack it.) cell#9 was only attached by 1 piece of binding tape,cell #8 was split front to back top&bottom, cell #7 was split front to back on the top skin, the slider ripped the toggles and hardware off the risers. Ended up replacing the harness and hardware, there are pictures of the canopy in my gallery. The third was my fault completely I only set one brake, then opened lower than I should have(2,800') I chopped it because it was spinning and couldn't see anything wrong other than endcell closure and got to decision altitude. Wasn't a neccessary cutaway but I didn't know that until we watched the video a few times. The fourth was at Richmond again. I just had a real good headdown dive when I went belly to earth I saw my right toggle loop around my arm and flapping 5' above me. Had to unwrap it before I pulled, and when it opened the toggle tied the right side risers together with the slider in a big knot so I had no way to flare. I steered to the end of the runway and chopped it. Jane had my main and freebag shortly after I landed. If the average is supposed to be a cutaway every 700 jumps, then I guess I helped keep it that high with 4 in 300 jumps "If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,065 #31 March 25, 2007 >The reports seemed to think the skyhook saved at around 500'. Correct. The jumper that cut away at 500 feet survived; the jumper that cut away at 200' didn't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #32 March 26, 2007 Quote In addition, a spinning malfunction will be likely to get a faster deployment anyway from a skyhook. Faster how? Not altitude loss. Think about this: you have a low speed cutaway with a skyhook from a fully inflated main (lets say it's just not controllable), the skyhook does it's job and your reserve opens in 150-200'. Now, on your next jump, you have a bag lock, you cutaway, and the skyhook does it's job. Do you think your reserve is going to be open in the same 150-200' that it was in the low speed situation? I hope not! The same concept applies to any scenario where the rate of decent may be accelerated. Yes, there may be other variables such as getting deployed to the side from a spin, but which way is the reserve going to be facing when it pushes the slider down? Is it going to be facing the sky, so that it will level off quickly, or will it be facing the ground, in which case it will dive (and loose more altitude)? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kissrg 0 #33 March 26, 2007 Quote Quote In addition, a spinning malfunction will be likely to get a faster deployment anyway from a skyhook. Faster how? Not altitude loss. Think about this: you have a low speed cutaway with a skyhook from a fully inflated main (lets say it's just not controllable), the skyhook does it's job and your reserve opens in 150-200'. Now, on your next jump, you have a bag lock, you cutaway, and the skyhook does it's job. Do you think your reserve is going to be open in the same 150-200' that it was in the low speed situation? I hope not! The same concept applies to any scenario where the rate of decent may be accelerated. Yes, there may be other variables such as getting deployed to the side from a spin, but which way is the reserve going to be facing when it pushes the slider down? Is it going to be facing the sky, so that it will level off quickly, or will it be facing the ground, in which case it will dive (and loose more altitude)? In time you may get a faster deployment from a spinning malfunction with skyhook, but the altitude loss is probably the same. Take account that the spinning canopy have a considerable vertical descent as well so what you win from the spinning that you loss with the vertical speed. Robert Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #34 March 26, 2007 Kelly, That only applies during the first second of canopy deployment. Once the canopy fabric starts to spread, it will slow you down dramatically, and swing you under the reserve canopy. After that, all the energy swings to a downwards direction. The bottom line is: if you are so low that one second will make a difference, you have made too many mistakes on your way to the scene of the accident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #35 March 27, 2007 Quote The bottom line is: if you are so low that one second will make a difference, you have made too many mistakes on your way to the scene of the accident. ...but perhaps one less mistake than the jumper who didn't invest in a skyhook. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #36 March 27, 2007 Quote Quote The bottom line is: if you are so low that one second will make a difference, you have made too many mistakes on your way to the scene of the accident. ...but perhaps one less mistake than the jumper who didn't invest in a skyhook. If you think not choosing a rig with a skyhook is a "mistake" then you've been reading too much advertising. Bill Booth used to be the biggest OPPONENT of RSL's in the industry. Now, with a marketing advantage, and an invention meaningful in very limited cases, he is the biggest proponent of his "RSL" system. Great for business, good for skydiving, a "mistake" not having it? Not hardly. And we're all welcome to change our opinions. BTW is seems Bill's opinion paper opposed to RSL's is no longer on the web site, but it is referenced in the options explination page. I used to offer it in the spirit of equal time to customers when they were deciding about an RSL when they were usually an option. My advice is choose a rig, then choose a skyhook or not if available. Some people choose a rig based on the availability of a skyhook. Is this a good idea? Sure, if that is their CHOICE. Not choosing a skyhook is NOT a "mistake".I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #37 March 27, 2007 Quote Quote Quote The bottom line is: if you are so low that one second will make a difference, you have made too many mistakes on your way to the scene of the accident. ...but perhaps one less mistake than the jumper who didn't invest in a skyhook. If you think not choosing a rig with a skyhook is a "mistake" then you've been reading too much advertising.. I don't, and I don't jump with one, but I will make that call when I get another rig. I just think it's ridiculous to discount the advantages in altitude or time of a safety device with bluster about mistakes that led up to that point. The fact is those mistakes have killed experienced jumpers in incidents where a skyhook might have saved them. It's no great leap of the imagination to see the danger zone in which the skyhook is particularly beneficial, or recount the past incidents where jumpers have gone in with reserves partially deployed. The same attitude greeted the advent of AADs. If you chop and go in with a streamering reserve and no skyhook, one of the decisions that led you to that point was gear choice now. Poor choices are easy to spot with 20/20 hindsight and can mislead (you don't see the other potential consequences), but you can call it what you like. Would you say the 3 guys who went in in Antarctica made a mistake by not jumping with AADs (Contrary to information I've seen posted, the surviving jumper's AAD did deploy for him)? Or are the decisions to be assessed limited exclusively to those made in the air. Decisions in skydiving start on the ground IMHO, and one of them is gear choice. You may only live to regret that decision for a fleeting second. Chances are most people with skyhooks will never need them a few will and even fewer will have problems because of them, this makes it a simple decision for me, when the time comes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #38 March 27, 2007 I think the fact that a skyhook will produce a slightly quicker reserve opening compared to a standard RSL is one of its least important benefits. If I'm low enough that it matters, I'm probably too scared to cut away anyway. But the skyhook does fix many of the problems/concerns associated with a standard RSL. I can understand why Bill Booth would have a different opinion of the Skyhook (regardless of who invented it) and a standard RSL. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #39 March 27, 2007 True, but compared to a rig with a Collins lanyard and a lighter loaded main you're back to cutaway altitude, which IMHO is its primary advantage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,065 #40 March 27, 2007 >I just think it's ridiculous to discount the advantages in altitude or time >of a safety device with bluster about mistakes that led up to that point. Skydivers have something of a knee-jerk reaction to gear. Right now the knee is jerking pro-skyhook. If we see rigger errors that cause fatalities with the more-complex rigging of the skyhook, I could see it jerking just as rapidly in the other direction. We've seen the same thing with AAD's, RSL's, the Catapult, mini-risers, external pilot chutes etc. There are always people who are certain that the new feature will be a lifesaver, and there are always people who believe it will be death-on-a-stick. The Skyhook is a clever bit of gear, and when used correctly, may indeed save a few lives. If it tempts people to reduce their minimums, though, it may cause some skydivers to lose what margins of safety they once had. Hopefully we'll avoid that mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #41 March 27, 2007 That is a valid intelligent argument, saying someone who might be saved by a skyhook already screwed up too many ways to make it worthwhile is not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #42 March 27, 2007 Quote Would you say the 3 guys who went in in Antarctica made a mistake by not jumping with AADs (Contrary to information I've seen posted, the surviving jumper's AAD did deploy for him)? No they made a mistake in not pulling prior to impact and if a person believes ANYTHING else will save you from death, they're a retard.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brianfry713 0 #43 March 27, 2007 Quote The fourth was at Richmond again. I just had a real good headdown dive when I went belly to earth I saw my right toggle loop around my arm and flapping 5' above me. Had to unwrap it before I pulled, and when it opened the toggle tied the right side risers together with the slider in a big knot so I had no way to flare. It sounds like you should have replaced the Vector 2 before freeflying with it instead of repairing it after your second chop. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #44 March 27, 2007 Quote Quote Would you say the 3 guys who went in in Antarctica made a mistake by not jumping with AADs (Contrary to information I've seen posted, the surviving jumper's AAD did deploy for him)? No they made a mistake in not pulling prior to impact and if a person believes ANYTHING else will save you from death, they're a retard. Ad hominem aside, they're now dead, a correctly set AAD would have saved them. I'm sure they planned on pulling, they certainly weren't complacent about pulling due to an AAD they didn't wear. Michael Kearns is alive, he has stated that he thinks his AAD fired just as he reached for silver, his closing loop was cut. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #45 March 27, 2007 Quote Ad hominem aside, they're now dead, a correctly set AAD would have saved them. Not getting out of the plane would have saved them too. Not pulling a handle in time is a mistake. Not having an AAD is not.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #46 March 27, 2007 Quote Quote Ad hominem aside, they're now dead, a correctly set AAD would have saved them. Not getting out of the plane would have saved them too. Not pulling a handle in time is a mistake. Not having an AAD is not. Regardless of what you call it. A smart gear choice can make the difference between life and death in some circumstances where you fuck up. Nobody can guarantee they won't fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #47 March 27, 2007 The fact you're willing to trust that a device will make up for your inaction and prevent your death is truely scary. If you'd like to do an experiment proving your "faith", I got $125.00 (the cost of a cutter) that says you won't let your Cypres save you on your next jump.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #48 March 27, 2007 Along the same lines no one can guarantee their extra gear will save them when they screw up!!! "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #49 March 27, 2007 Quote The fact you're willing to trust that a device will make up for your inaction and prevent your death is truely scary. If you'd like to do an experiment proving your "faith", I got $125.00 (the cost of a cutter) that says you won't let your Cypres save you on your next jump. I don't, I pull, I've never needed an AAD, but I'm sick of these emotional arguments surrounding no-brainer decisions. There's a pile of corpses backing up the argument for AADs, and there's emotional and logical fallacies supporting claims that aren't even accurate about trusting your life to a $125 cutter. An AAD is a backup, nothing more. Go ahead jump without one, but if you persuade enough people to follow suit some of you WILL die as a result and all the hubris about your ability to pull cannot prevent that. You trust your life to s-links. How much do they cost? There are quite a few fatalities that a skyhook could have prevented, it's a more difficult case to make, but I consider some of the arguments against it as lamentable as the case against AADs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #50 March 27, 2007 Quote Along the same lines no one can guarantee their extra gear will save them when they screw up!!! If I'd said that you'd have a point, but I didn't. If you want a guarantee, buy a toaster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
