More Vigil Concerns

[ChrisL 2]

Today I had a very reputable source comment to me that he had knowledge of recent events in which a 2 vigils were tested and failed to function.

In other words in both cases it did not activate, and the test gear bounced.

It was stated that after the first case AAD told them they must not have turned the unit on, and after the second failure were told that AAD placed responsibility on the company that manufactured the cutters.

Has anyone else heard this?

__

My mighty steed

[billvon 2,991]

>It was stated that after the first case AAD told them they must not have
>turned the unit on, and after the second failure were told that AAD placed
>responsibility on the company that manufactured the cutters.

There was a "failure to fire" incident they had recently (within the last year) - they issued a recall on a batch of cutters as a result. That may be what you are referring to. They went over it during their PIA seminar.

[ryoder 1,590]

I've wondered; If you were going to develop a new AAD, why re-invent the cutter? Why not just use CYPRES cutters?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[PhreeZone 20]

Its patented. Vigil uses a cutter that is round and the Cypres cutter is a straight blade. The thought is that the CYPRES could somehow get turned 90 degrees and would not cut through the loop. A round cutter can be installed at any angle and it will cut though the loop.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ryoder 1,590]

Quote

Its patented. Vigil uses a cutter that is round and the Cypres cutter is a straight blade. The thought is that the CYPRES could somehow get turned 90 degrees and would not cut through the loop. A round cutter can be installed at any angle and it will cut though the loop.

I did not say copy the CYPRES cutter; I said use the CYPRES cutter. The R&D has been done; The mfg'ing engineering has been done; It is on the market. Just design your new AAD to use the CYPRES cutter. Sure Airtec would rather not have the competition, but I don't think they would mind selling more cutters. Bill Booth would probably like to be the only container builder, but he licensed his 3-ring to his competition.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[billvon 2,991]

>Why not just use CYPRES cutters?

AFAIK Cypres does not make their own cutters. Cutters have been around for a long time, and are used on everything from ejection seats to spacecraft. The trick is not developing one's own cutter, but selecting a good one from the array of cutters available.

[Popovitch 0]

Hello.

Good to know that your "very reputable source" have not tell you the correct information.

Please go here:

http://www.vigil.aero/home.php

Everything is write, Honest, True, and OPEN !!!.

Thanks .

[ChrisL 2]

Quote

Hello.

Good to know that your "very reputable source" have not tell you the correct information.

So you are saying that these failures did not happen?

My "very reputable source" gave me the information he had. He did not claim that he had ALL the information that is available on the subject.

Thats why I asked others for more information.

This does not make my source any less reputable or indicate that what he did say was untrue.

I have a Vigil in my rig, so I think its pretty clear why I'd like to have all the facts on the matter.

I am an AAD customer with a very valid question. Your sarcastic reply would seem to validate some of the current feelings about how AAD deals with these types of issues.

__

My mighty steed

[Popovitch 0]

I think my english is too bad and you don't really understand what i want to say.

So appologize for my poor french native english...

If you read our statement, its perfectly write what's happend and what we do.

I never say that is not happend.
The best proof is what we write on our web site ! isn't it ?
I think honestly that we are the only one in this industry to communicate on every thing.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

Thanks for your interest and again sorry for my bad english spoken.

[ChrisL 2]

Quote

Thanks for your interest and again sorry for my bad english spoken.

Apology accepted. Language barrier can sometimes cause misunderstanding.

However, in reading the website, its not really that clear.

Is the statement regarding the double pin cutter the same issue that I'm asking about?

I say its not clear because there is no mention of the specific problem
that the new cutter is supposed to address.

__

My mighty steed

[VectorMark 0]

Hi Chris

Let me step in here. I was involved with this issue from the start.

AAD produced a new style cutter to address the problems with the old cutter they previously produced that had a plastic insert. The plastic insert is sensitive to rigger technique while packing a reserve and can be damaged when using a positive tension device to close the container.
The new cutters are less likely to sustain this type of damage. The new inox cutters are more robust and not prone to this type of damage.

Jump forward to the incident that you heard about and is posted on AAD's website. The 1-pin cutter had no problems form the start. When the two pin cutter was manufactured the manufacturer of the cutter made a slight change in the requirement to activate the charge that fires the blade. This caused some of the cutters not to be activated by the Vigil unit hence the two failures during testing.

This has been fixed by the cutter manufacturer and the new two pin cutters are now available.

[ChrisL 2]

Mark,

This is exactly the information I was looking for.
Thank you.

__

My mighty steed

[billvon 2,991]

>>Today I had a very reputable source comment to me that he had
>>knowledge of recent events in which a 2 vigils were tested and failed to
>>function.

>Good to know that your "very reputable source" have not tell you the
>correct information.
>Please go here:

Uh, that site lists the failures as well:

"Regarding the recent tests carried out by Strong Enterprises in the US with the new vigil double pin cutter wich didn't perform correctly. This only affects the full Stainless Steel Double Cutter of which only 30 pieces were produced.
All 30 Vigil Dual Cutters in this batch have been accounted for."

[ChrisL 2]

Quote

Uh, that site lists the failures as well:

Uh, Thanks
I read that too. I was actually looking for something a little more specific than "didn't perform correctly"

To be precise, I was looking for something that directly tied the listings
on that site to what I had heard.
The original information I had received did not mention anything specific about one vs two pin models or who had done the testing, so I still had no way to know if the info on the website was referencing the same events that I had been told about.

Mark gave me exactly the specifics I was looking for, so now all is right with the world.

__

My mighty steed

[Popovitch 0]

Chris,

Sorry to don't have answer correctly to you request.

Mark thanks for your help...

Take Care

[billvon 2,991]

>The new cutters are less likely to sustain this type of damage. The
> new inox cutters are more robust and not prone to this type of
> damage.

An update on this from a Polish rigger:
----------------------
Posted in Poland by one of the military riggers. On Saturday 28 Apr 07 in one of the riggers he assembled during main packing reserve popped open. After egzamination he found that closing loop got cut. He egzamined closely a Vigil cuter (manufactured in Apr 07) and found that edges were very sharp and could caused closing loop damage. Vigil was equipped with new metal cutter. Not sure if he approached Vigil dealer or factory. He said that he will check all rig's he packed equipped with Vigil to make sure the cutter does not damage the loop.
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Original post:
http://skydive.waw.pl/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3538#30965

[skydiverek 63]

Quote

>The new cutters are less likely to sustain this type of damage. The
> new inox cutters are more robust and not prone to this type of
> damage.

An update on this from a Polish rigger:
----------------------
Posted in Poland by one of the military riggers. On Saturday 28 Apr 07 in one of the riggers he assembled during main packing reserve popped open. After egzamination he found that closing loop got cut. He egzamined closely a Vigil cuter (manufactured in Apr 07) and found that edges were very sharp and could caused closing loop damage. Vigil was equipped with new metal cutter. Not sure if he approached Vigil dealer or factory. He said that he will check all rig's he packed equipped with Vigil to make sure the cutter does not damage the loop.
----------------------
Original post:
http://skydive.waw.pl/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3538#30965

Brussels, 4 May, 2007

VIGIL NOTICE

It has been reported to us, that some full stainless steel cutters in the field have damaged and cut reserve closing loops while the container is being closed. This has only been reported on cutters placed on top of the pilot chute. It has only occurred on some cutters from the batch shipped during March and April of 2007

( Printed D.O.M. + batch number on the cutter body is “03-07-1” or -2 or -3 ).

It is our thought, that the movement between the grommet on the container/pilot chute, and the cutter body while the container is being closed is causing this damage.

It is estimated that about 10% of this lot of cutters may cause this problem.

It has occurred on four cutters in Europe, and three in the USA so far .

All the cutters remaining in our stock have been returned to the manufacturer for inspection. Some of these cutters have a slightly different shape to the hole that can be the cause of this type of damage.

AAD is busy investigating the reports and working in conjunction with the cutter manufacturer to determine the exact cause. Once we have further information we will issue a product service bulletin with a resolution for our customers.

If you have a unit that was delivered during this period, and have the cutter location above the pilot chute, you should be aware of the potential for loop damage.

We also urge you to inspect your reserve closing loop.

If damage to the loop is found, please contact your dealer or info@vigil.aero for further instructions.

As soon as we have more information we will post this and issue a service bulletin with further action.


VIGIL Team