Stand up landings

[Baksteen 84]

I have searched and while I got an awful lot of hits on the subject, none of the threads I found were exactly what I was looking for, though many single, buried posts relate to the subject.


I often see posters claim that they stood up one or more landings, which they obviously regard as 'the' golden standard for being proficient at canopy control.
OTOH, people who PLF get mocked or asked "What did you fall over for?" or even "[they] have twelve jumps already and still cannot stand up [their] landing."

Why do people emphasise the fact that they can stand up their landings?
Why is standing up a landing important to you?
What do you consider a poor landing?
How do you define a good landing?
Are you an instructor/coach and what do you say about landings in front of new jumpers? (EDIT2: non-instructors, please note that i say in front of new jumpers, rather than to new jumpers.)
When do you (have to) PLF?

EDIT: Please note that I am most definitely not talking about faceplants - people who faceplant can be mocked and should be.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[theonlyski 8]

Why do people emphasise the fact that they can stand up their landings?

Why not?

Why is standing up a landing important to you?

Hurts less

What do you consider a poor landing?

one that gets you a ride in the whambulance

How do you define a good landing?

one you walk away from

Are you an instructor/coach and what do you say about landings in front of new jumpers?

no

When do you (have to) PLF?

when its gonna probably hurt not to.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[brettski74 0]

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Why do people emphasise the fact that they can stand up their landings?

Because they don't know any better. There are many examples of stand up landings that have much room for improvement.

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Why is standing up a landing important to you?

If done well, shows some understanding of canopy control principles required for landing in the current conditions and provides a minimum risk of landing injury.

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What do you consider a poor landing?

Late flare. Incomplete flare. No flare. Very early flare. Over-flare (pops up). Basically anything not good.

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How do you define a good landing?

Complete flare, started at an appropriate height, held until on the ground and stopped and canopy planes out level with the ground and with feet just touching or within a couple inches of the ground.

Accuracy is nice, too.

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Are you an instructor/coach and what do you say about landings in front of new jumpers?

I'm a coach. It depends on what they need to work on. Keep it simple. Tell them what's good. One or two points for improvement. Fix what's broken. Don't mess with what's working.

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When do you (have to) PLF?

When you can't stand up the landing due to either poor form in your landing (eg. flare too high, too low, not to completion), unforseen conditions (eg. turbulence) or conditions you shouldn't be jumping in in the first place or a combination of any of the above.

[JohanW 0]

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Why do people emphasise the fact that they can stand up their landings?

It's the most simple mostly adequate indicator of good performance.

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Why is standing up a landing important to you?

Not having to clean my rig and suit. Not damaging my wingsuit. Looking cool for the chicks. (Oh, wait .. )

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What do you consider a poor landing?

Somewhere between any landing you don't walk away from and any landing that leaves room for improvement. Depends.

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How do you define a good landing?

No permanent damage to anyone or anything goes a long way towards a good enough landing. Good, well, better than that.

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Are you an instructor/coach and what do you say about landings in front of new jumpers?

As a de facto coach, I can be loudly happy when a student flares too high and does not let up on the toggles. I might also praise a swooper who does not have to dig out of the corner. I might heap praise on someone who makes a normal straight-in landing and performs an elegant, well-timed flare. If somebody comes in low over the hangar (maybe even has to pull in their legs), I may express my concern, though maybe not in words. Sometimes, I may point out someone not finishing their flare and having to run out needlessly.

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When do you (have to) PLF?

I tend to slide in some landings rather than PLF. (Caveat: there's a certain technique to that which is discussed in countless other threads on here!) When coming in with a high downward speed component, I'll PLF. (Did you see the Mijdrecht video?
In general, I'm not stuck up on people standing up their landings. They should be in control, though. Finishing the flare makes standing up the landing easier, so it's a decent indicator. I have however seen people who were finishing their flare and stood up the landing with no more than a single step, but who were not flying through the flare, and I did not consider that a really good landing. But that's more advanced than what I'd expect from a student. Beginners should be working on that though.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[jakee 1,489]

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Why do people emphasise the fact that they can stand up their landings?
Why is standing up a landing important to you?

Because being able to stand up your landings is a fundamental indicator of canopy skills. If you're unable to flare your canopy well enough to stand up a landing under normal circumstances then something is wrong.

Note, being able to stand up your landings doesn't neccessarily mean that you are good, but not being able to stand them up most probably means that you're not good enough.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Will_Evo 0]

I actually learned alot this last weekend from not standing up a landing(s)(Learned the hard way..I didn't mean to fall). My first 23 jumps I stood every single one up, including the AFF jumps, but this last weekend the wind was rather steady at 12-13 but was changing direction alot. I only jumped twice, but learned from each landing something I had never experienced.

I think the goal for anyone on every jump should be a stand up landing on target, but at the same time, anyone who did not stand up a landing can probably pull something from the experience and learn from it as I did. One of my landings were going perfect into the wind, not exactly on target but not 20 meters away either...I noticed coming down that I was going so slow it felt like I almost didnt need to flare, well at flare altitude, I gave the same flare I would in a no wind day(Lack of experience on my part) and started going straight up with no forward movement and actually started back sliding...of course I did not stand this landing up, but I learned a valuable lesson from it.

So my thing is, stand up landings should be the ultimate goal and on target BUT not standing up a landing shouldn't be mocked, should be learned from to achieve the ultimate goal in all jump conditions.

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[kawisixer01 0]

For the longest time I had never even realized there was another way...I was taught to stand up landings from the beginning by my instructors and personally didn't NOT stand up a landing til I came screaming in on a no wind day at about jump 60. Recently I was at another DZ and they were teaching students to come in on their butts, well I have seen exactly that result in a broken back in a student last year...

[OlympiaStoica 0]

... are overrated!!!

That's my story and I'm sticking with it ... but don't listen to me ... (really) ... I'm now grounded with a broken ankle (yep, botched landing) and sure as hell I'll be changing my tune once I get back in the sky

O

[erdnarob 1]

Many years ago there were no stand up landings at all when using PLF at landing with round parachutes since the motion was almost a vertical one. Things changed slowly when ParaCommander type canopies came up. Those allowed the jumper to have a significant forward speed and because of the existence of that speed, vertical descent could be transfered to an almost only horizontal speed when using the proper technique allowing the jumper to do stand up landing (provided the loading was OK). At that time there were only one or two canopy sizes (normal or jumbo Paracommander). Now with ram air canopies, the forward speed is even more important and therefore we have the possibility to transfer the vertical motion into a completely horizontal one with an extra support for a soft landing provided we walk or run forward (still with the proper technique). Why do we do and like stand ups ? Because it is the sign of a well controled flare and landing. It shows that one masters his/her canopy and technique and it is way more confortable than slipping in the grass and get your jumpsuit and rig all stained and dirty. Some DZ are relatively clean with nice grass but some other DZs are not that neat for PLF.
Then the answer to your question is that stand up landing is : more confortable, less damaging for your rig or yourself. But if you feel OK to do PLF, there is nothing wrong with that but that can be interpreted as you still have to master your canopy and technique. Modern technology is there to help us and makes the life more confortable. Why not using it to our best benefit?
I am a heavy jumper and I understand what you mean very well but with the proper canopy size and a good technique, you will love stand ups landings. Don't give up, it takes a while sometime. Landing is an art.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[repcool 2]

Why do people emphasise the fact that they can stand up their landings?

Everyone else stands up so it must be the thing to do.

Why is standing up a landing important to you?

It shows that I planned and controlled the situation for the best possible outcome.

What do you consider a poor landing?

Hitting something.

How do you define a good landing?

It went as planned. (mostly)

Are you an instructor/coach and what do you say about landings in front of new jumpers? (EDIT2: non-instructors, please note that i say in front of new jumpers, rather than to new jumpers.)

Coach. I try and make folks feel comfortable about their landings and point out that a good PLF beats many standup landings. I have seen more injuries (including myself) from any PLF attempt. I have only ever been complimented on a landing once, and that was a PLF.

When do you (have to) PLF?

If it doesn't look 100% like you will make the landing work as planned then a PLF is a good plan to execute.

[wmw999 2,446]

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If it doesn't look 100% like you will make the landing work as planned then a PLF is a good plan to execute

Perfect.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[flydog 0]

I must disagree. I Have slid in almost every landing since Jan 2007. Approximately 400 of them. I stood up three. I have a lot of stainless from my beltline to my knees. I had a very soft landing in Deland Jan of 2007 and had sharp pain from my previous injury. I collapsed and couldn't get up for a while. People were puzzled because the landing was so soft.

I have decided that sliding isn't so bad. I will only stand up when it just happens by accident. I give up early and plan for the slide. Its very controlled and smooth. Most could probably be stand ups by why take a chance.

Any smooth, soft controlled landing is a good one, if you stand up or not.

[billvon 2,991]

>Most could probably be stand ups by why take a chance.

Because a smooth standup is as low stress as a smooth butt landing. On a hard standup landing, with a PLF, you stand to break your ankle/leg. On a hard butt landing, a broken pelvis/back and paralysis is a likely result.

I don't suggest that people protect their legs at the price of their spines. Legs heal; spinal cords do not.

[Lucky123 0]

Standing up my landings is important to me becuase I have a bad back. Out of my 93 jumps I have stood up all but 2 of them.

[fasted3 0]

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people who faceplant can be mocked and should be.

Are you kidding?
People who mock can and should be kicked in the nuts.
If someone does something embarrassing and/or painful, they should get sympathy, not mockery.
As for stand up landings, they are great, but not mandatory.
Skydiving: It's not a job, it's a hobby.
If you're having fun, and not hurting yourself or anybody else, you're doing it right.
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one, and it's better to do a PLF when you don't need to than not do one and get hurt.
When do I PLF? Any time I damn well please!

But what do I know?

[Lucky123 0]

men who play the flute can be mocked and should be

[billvon 2,991]

>If you're having fun, and not hurting yourself or anybody else,
>you're doing it right.

Well, not really. If you're pulling low, landing against traffic and biffing all your landings, you're not doing it right. Even if you're having fun.

>People who mock can and should be kicked in the nuts.

People who girly-kick other people should be mocked mercilessly.

[fasted3 0]

If you're pulling low, landing against traffic and biffing all your landings what are the odds you're not going to get hurt or hurt somebody else?

Don't forget, shit happens. Just having bad luck is bad enough, let alone doing crap like that.

Mocking on the internet is OK too. Have fun.
In person is a different story, but I don't get much of that.

But what do I know?

[JackC 0]

Stand up landings don't necessarily mean much on their own, it depends on what else they did prior to that and on who's doing it and under what circumstances. If a pro swooper does a well controlled 450 and screams in pulling off a blindman, waving at the crowd and then fails to stand it up, that doesn't mean he's crap at landing. But a jumper performing straight in approach under a lightly loaded relatively low performance canopy should ideally be able to stand up (or run it out) at the end of it if he did everything right. But just because they stood it up, doesn't mean it was all good and just because they fell over doesn't mean it was all bad.

Either way, mockery or sympathy won't help a person who has just biffed their landing through lack of skill. If you're going to say anything, it's better to give them a way to improve, either by explaining what they did wrong and what they can do right next time or by pointing them in the direction of someone who can coach them.

[nerd137 0]

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Either way, mockery or sympathy won't help a person who has just biffed their landing through lack of skill. If you're going to say anything, it's better to give them a way to improve, either by explaining what they did wrong and what they can do right next time or by pointing them in the direction of someone who can coach them.

Unless it's someone you know and love, in which case intense mockery and teasing is absolutely required.

[flydog 0]

Bill, I never said butt slide. I slide in on my left knee and right foot. I still have my legs as shock absorbers. Also if the landing is not going to be smooth I will have my feet down and PLF.

[billvon 2,991]

>If you're pulling low, landing against traffic and biffing all your landings
>what are the odds you're not going to get hurt or hurt somebody else?

The odds are fairly high. But you might get away with it for months, and I've seen too many people with the attitude "hey, dude, chill out. I'm not hurting anyone else."

[billvon 2,991]

>I slide in on my left knee and right foot.

OK. I just think that having your legs oriented so they take the load in the direction they were designed to is going to give you the best chance of avoiding injury. Over millions of years, evolution has provided us with a fairly good shock absorption system when your feet are involved - but we don't really have much protection when the first point of contact is (for example) your knee.

[Baksteen 84]

First, credits to fasted3 to call me out on the 'mocking faceplants' comment.
Frankly I was surprised that it took so long before someone did.

Anyway, I have gotten a lot of valuable replies to my OP, some of which I disagree with, some of which I do agree with.
The point of this thread, however, was to see how people (both new and experienced) view the importance of standing up a landing.
The following quote sums up my own views perfectly:

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Note, being able to stand up your landings doesn't neccessarily mean that you are good, but not being able to stand them up most probably means that you're not good enough.

The problem I wanted to address is that when inexperienced skydivers hear 'everybody' talk about standing up a landing as not a but the (fundamental) indicator of canopy skills (or don't even get taught any other way, which I find quite shocking), the inexperienced skydiver might try their utmost to stand up their landing, rather than to land safely.
What I would like is the emphasis to shift from standing up the landing as being the indicator for canopy skills to the person aquiring the judgement necessary to determine which type of landing is / would have been appropriate.

Please note that while I'm talking about inexperienced skydivers, but that a better description might be 'inexperienced canopy pilots'. On the risk of insulting some people, that would include those who view their parachutes merely as a way to survive freefall and aren't interested in learning to fly their parachutes.

For example, I know the merits of sliding in a landing for swoopers, but IMO sliding in can be very dangerous. It IS an advanced landing technique and should never be attempted just like that.

Yes, I am an advocating the PLF. Not for every landing, but when appropriate.
Don't get complacent - especially while landing.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[fasted3 0]

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>If you're pulling low, landing against traffic and biffing all your landings
>what are the odds you're not going to get hurt or hurt somebody else?

The odds are fairly high. But you might get away with it for months, and I've seen too many people with the attitude "hey, dude, chill out. I'm not hurting anyone else."

The odds are low, but I know what you mean.

One of the three has a high probability of hurting somebody else, landing against traffic, and you know that nobody is going to do that consistantly for months and get away with it. What dropzone is going to put up with that for more than about twice?
Biffing landings can be a lot of things, but my part of this discussion was about PLFs, and how some people sneer and tease at anything less than a perfect stand up, (mostly keyboard experts, compared to real life, I might say.) My point was, a PLF is a perfectly acceptable landing, and no more dangerous to anybody else than a tiptoe on the X. It is safer to the jumper than almost anything, IMO, when conditions are not perfect. Landing off, coming in a bit wrong or unusual circumstances. In real life, I didn't get mocked too much for my biffs, I got mostly good advice and help. Now I do fine. After 100 crashes I got pretty good at the PLF. I'm glad I don't have to do them much any more, but more glad to have had the practice. As I said before, I'll do one whenever I want to, and hey, dude, I'll try not to hurt anybody else.

But what do I know?