If unable to unstow a brake, you should...

[smartalecc5 0]

Hi, my friend and I were having a friendly debate after our latest skydive. For both of us, our left toggle was stuck after deploying. Eventually, after a hard tug down we got it unstowed but we were wondering what the best course of action is if you cannot unstow the brake with force.

We were wondering if it is possible to flare with the risers and have a safe landing or should you cut away and take a reserve ride?

Thanks

[azureriders 0]

It would depend on a lot of things such as wing loading, practice with rear riser landings, etc, etc. At about 400 jumps on a spectre 230 loaded at about 1.2 to 1 I did land (pound in) with one break stowed. I wraped the unstowed break around my hand until flying straight and flared with my rear risers, and performed one hell of a PLF.

If I had it to do over again, on the 230, I would land it again. The same situation on my 170 at 1.5 to 1, even though I have plenty of rear riser landings on that canopy, no way would I land it. You have to remember, it is not just a rear riser landing, it is a rear riser landing from 1/2 breaks.

So my vote is, IT DEPENDS

[billvon 2,995]

On a Pilot 188, loaded 1:1 on a moderately windy day? Assuming you've practice this before? Might want to give it a try!

On a Crossfire2 109 in no wind at 2:1? Probably a good idea to cut it away. (Which is the scenario I found myself in some weeks back.)

In all cases, practicing this up high is critical to being able to do it safely. If you are going to try this, wrap the unstowed brake around the rear riser to "stow" it at the same height as the other one and practice doing _very_gentle_ flares. Don't flare deeper than that when you are on final - and if you have to do this for real, be ready to do a very good PLF.

[LongWayToFall 0]

How bout use a hook knife to cut the steering line that is hung up?

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

I have not had this experience. However, I was on a full altitude hop & pop with a friend when this happend to him. Because he discovered this at 10,000 ft, he had LOTS of time to practice with his rear risers before he made a decision to land the main. He stated later that if it had happened at his usual depolyment altitude, he probably would have cut it away. I don't know what canopy he was flying.

He made a safe landing, and the only sad part of the jump was that he missed being in our canopy proximity flight photos!

That said... the comment above about a hook knife makes sense to me.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[lowpull 0]

Terrible idea, and worse advice to someone with 26 jumps.
In flight rigging is dangerous at best, and is WAY too much for someone with this skill level to try.

ralph

[billvon 2,995]

>How bout use a hook knife to cut the steering line that is hung up?

I would NOT try this unless you try it under more controlled conditions. Some canopies will not tolerate the complete loss of tension that occurs when you completely release a steering line; I've seen more than one canopy tail at Bridge Day 'fold upwards' when a jumper released both zoo toggles and then dropped them.

So if you want to add this to your bag of tricks, actually try it (preferably when you need a reline anyway!) before you consider using it to deal with an actual problem. It is not without danger, and thus should not be attempted unless you know _exactly_ what you are doing. Doing it with a 3-canopy system would be an even better idea.

About the only time I'd try it in 'real life' is if I were under a reserve that was not controllable at all without cutting a line.

[chrismgtis 0]

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Hi, my friend and I were having a friendly debate after our latest skydive. For both of us, our left toggle was stuck after deploying. Eventually, after a hard tug down we got it unstowed but we were wondering what the best course of action is if you cannot unstow the brake with force.

We were wondering if it is possible to flare with the risers and have a safe landing or should you cut away and take a reserve ride?

Thanks

If you have 26 jumps, that's most likely cut away time, but this is a pretty hard question to say one way or another on. Personally, I'd find the most experienced jumper on the DZ and ask him, then ask the next person down. Then ask 5 other people.

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About the only time I'd try it in 'real life' is if I were under a reserve that was not controllable at all without cutting a line.

Holy cow that's the scariest scenario I've heard of.

Is there even a situation where a canopy couldn't be controlled without cutting a line? (not counting a situation like an auto-turning canopy with the breaks stowed). I mean, surely you could steer with the risers and that'd be by far the best option on a reserve?

Personally I think I'd be considering letting the reserve just fly straight and hope I land somewhere soft if I couldn't steer at all before I cut a line

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[brettski74 0]

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Hi, my friend and I were having a friendly debate after our latest skydive. For both of us, our left toggle was stuck after deploying. Eventually, after a hard tug down we got it unstowed but we were wondering what the best course of action is if you cannot unstow the brake with force.

We were wondering if it is possible to flare with the risers and have a safe landing or should you cut away and take a reserve ride?

This happened to me on jump 32. I managed to get it out before my decision altitude, but it certainly took me by surprise. I spent jump 33 practising several different ways to potentially resolve this situation should it happen again. My guess is that for one reason or another, the toggle got sinched up in the eye on the brake line, or perhaps on something on the riser. It's easier to deal with if you can get two hands over there. Using the one free riser, steer the canopy in a relatively safe direction, giving to consideration to traffic and where you need to go to get home. Now pull the free toggle down enough to straighten up the canopy flight. Check your altitude. Look up to the stuck toggle before placing the free brake line in your mouth to hold the canopy straight. Now get both hands up there and work the toggle free. If it takes more than 5 seconds or two tries, stop to check altitude, heading and traffic. If you can't get it out by your decision altitude, I'd chop it. While it is possible to land on rear risers:

it sounds like you haven't really practised this skill, so this may not be the best time to learn

While it may be possible to re-stow the released brake somehow, you probably won't be able to do so properly while flying and with load on the brake line. This is not something you want to suddenly release when you're 30 feet off the ground on final and preparing to do a rear riser flare.

This happened to me again on jump number 40. I handled it much more easily.

[waterboy3412 0]

Thanks for the responses guys, makes a lot of sense, i guess it just depends on the situation and experience.

Mike

[brettski74 0]

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If you are going to try this, wrap the unstowed brake around the rear riser to "stow" it at the same height as the other one and practice doing _very_gentle_ flares. Don't flare deeper than that when you are on final - and if you have to do this for real, be ready to do a very good PLF.

I'm wondering how secure such a temporary stowage of the brake line would be. I'd hate to have it release again at an inopportune time, such as on final or while trying to do my rear riser flare for landing. How do you propose to wrap the released brake line? Maybe something like a half hitch - or not quite just under the guide ring on the riser?

[labrys 0]

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Eventually, after a hard tug down we got it unstowed but we were wondering what the best course of action is if you cannot unstow the brake with force.

We were wondering if it is possible to flare with the risers and have a safe landing or should you cut away and take a reserve ride?

My thought process would be to go back to FJC basics:

At 26 jumps you should have an idea what a decent flare feels like, right? Do a practice flare with rear risers and feel it out. Does it feel close to what you get with toggles?

If you feel that you can safely turn, flare, and make the canopy fly straight then it's an option to choose to keep it.

If you don't feel comfortable get rid of it.

If you have doubts about being able to turn, flare, or fly straight then get rid of it.

Owned by Remi #?

[mircan 0]

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>How bout use a hook knife to cut the steering line that is hung up?

I would NOT try this unless you try it under more controlled conditions. Some canopies will not tolerate the complete loss of tension that occurs when you completely release a steering line; I've seen more than one canopy tail at Bridge Day 'fold upwards' when a jumper released both zoo toggles and then dropped them.

So if you want to add this to your bag of tricks, actually try it (preferably when you need a reline anyway!) before you consider using it to deal with an actual problem. It is not without danger, and thus should not be attempted unless you know _exactly_ what you are doing. Doing it with a 3-canopy system would be an even better idea.

About the only time I'd try it in 'real life' is if I were under a reserve that was not controllable at all without cutting a line.

Two of my friends had similar problems recently. One was under a Parafoil 282 and the other was flying TurboZX 205 (WL~1.1).
- Guy with Parafoil (instructor - 1000+ jumps) cut the stuck line and landed OK.
- The TurboZX guy (still student - 120 jumps - don`t ask) cut away stuck handle. The canopy went into, as he described it, chewy-snively-bumpy motion that was not going to stop and he could not get under control. He chopped and landed OK.

Personally on my canopy (xfire2 ~ 1.7) I would chop it.

dudeist skydiver #42

[JackC 0]

This happened to a very experienced jumper at my DZ recently under a reserve. Short of altitude and out of options, they tried a rear riser landing but the canopy stalled and collapsed at about 10ft dumping them very hard onto the ground. Luckily, they got away with it.

If it was me on my main with enough altitude to spare, I'd find the stall point on rear risers and see if I thought a rear riser landing was an option. On my canopy, I know how it handles and stalls on rear risers cos I've tried it plenty but never with the brakes stowed (one to try I think). If I wasn't happy it was 100% doable, I'd chop. If I wasn't at a safe altitude to chop, I'd be riding it in, either flaring on risers or if I thought it was going to stall I'd take the pounding of a half-brakes landing and PLF my ass off.

[SPAWNmaster 0]

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Hi, my friend and I were having a friendly debate after our latest skydive. For both of us, our left toggle was stuck after deploying. Eventually, after a hard tug down we got it unstowed but we were wondering what the best course of action is if you cannot unstow the brake with force.

We were wondering if it is possible to flare with the risers and have a safe landing or should you cut away and take a reserve ride?

Thanks

If you have 26 jumps, that's most likely cut away time, but this is a pretty hard question to say one way or another on. Personally, I'd find the most experienced jumper on the DZ and ask him, then ask the next person down. Then ask 5 other people.

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About the only time I'd try it in 'real life' is if I were under a reserve that was not controllable at all without cutting a line.

Holy cow that's the scariest scenario I've heard of.

Is there even a situation where a canopy couldn't be controlled without cutting a line? (not counting a situation like an auto-turning canopy with the breaks stowed). I mean, surely you could steer with the risers and that'd be by far the best option on a reserve?

Personally I think I'd be considering letting the reserve just fly straight and hope I land somewhere soft if I couldn't steer at all before I cut a line

do what you gotta do to save your life...

[popsjumper 2]

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... they tried a rear riser landing but the canopy stalled and collapsed at about 10ft...

Well, let's tell it like it is...the pilot stalled the canopy.
I would venture to guess that he didn't know where his rear-riser stall point was for that canopy, or, that he got excited and exceeded it by mistake.

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If it was me on my main with enough altitude to spare, I'd find the stall point on rear risers and see if I thought a rear riser landing was an option.

I'd suggest finding that stall point NOW and practicing rear-riser flares up high NOW instead of waiting until crunch time.

Before attempting a rear-riser landing, I'd suggest flying rear risers all through the landing pattern up to final bringing it lower and lower on successive jumps until you start getting a good sight picture of how the canopy is going to plane out AND finding out how it's going to recover when you let up on the rears. THEN land it on rears.

Landing rear risers is not hard to do on normal canopies at normal wingloadings. I cannot speak for the HP boys.

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On my canopy, I know how it handles and stalls on rear risers cos I've tried it plenty but never with the brakes stowed (one to try I think).

Which is why my response here is not directed at you so much...you're on track.

To the OP,
I would say, revert to your training.
Widen your scope of training with practice on other techniques hopefully before you need it.

It's good that you are asking...shows a desire to learn.
Have you talked to your local instructors and qualified canopy pilots at your DZ as yet?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[yoink 321]

It's definately worth pointing out that while practising rear riser landings are a good thing, doing one from half brakes will greatly increase the risk of stalling the canopy.

A rear riser landing, and a half braked rear riser landing are 2 different beasts in my book. Be super careful with the second.

[popsjumper 2]

Spot on, Yoink. Practicing with different brake configurations is the idea, yes.


Oh...BTW...dem guys are killing me with the "breaks".

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Andy9o8 2]

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Oh...BTW...dem guys are killing me with the "breaks".

Oh, well. Dem's da brakes.

[JackC 0]

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... they tried a rear riser landing but the canopy stalled and collapsed at about 10ft...

Well, let's tell it like it is...the pilot stalled the canopy.
I would venture to guess that he didn't know where his rear-riser stall point was for that canopy, or, that he got excited and exceeded it by mistake.

To be fair, it was the spinning mal, followed by the chop, followed by the stuck brake line on the reserve they had zero jumps on, leading to the unpracticed half-braked rear-riser flare because there was no altitude left, that lead to them stalling their canopy.

[jdfreefly 1]

I would refer you to incident 10 on this page:
http://www.poxon.org/Craig/Skydive/Fatalities/search.asp?MinDate=1%2F1%2F2002&MaxDate=31%2F12%2F2002&Country=US&CountryOp=%3D

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[billvon 2,995]

>How do you propose to wrap the released brake line?

Wrap it around the riser. Grab the toggle again when you are done, and then grab the entire riser (including the wrapped line) and prepare to flare with that. I've done that as a test and it works pretty well. I would avoid knots and the like.

[ScottyE 0]

I would chop it and practice flares on my reserve Seriously though why risk it when you got a perfectly good reserve waiting to be deployed?

I would rather land my big 7 cell Raven 3 than Pilot 210 with a brake stuck.

[Skydivesg 7]

This is a scenario that should be thought out and practiced many times under controlled conditions up high. This is one of the excercises I have people do in my canopy course.

It's called cross steering. You release one brake and cross steer with the other riser. You practice flying the canopy straight and do many practice flares and stalls using one toggle and one riser. it's part of learning all flight modes of your canopy.

Once you have done this many times it won't seem so scary. I've landed my Katana 120 twice under this scenario once in very light winds. It can be done if you don't lose your cool.

Last year I jumped with two people who had the same problem at a boogie. They both cutaway. One landed uneventfully the other wrenched his knee and was out for the rest of the year.

I'll take the devil I know.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[jurgencamps 0]

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It's definately worth pointing out that while practising rear riser landings are a good thing, doing one from half brakes will greatly increase the risk of stalling the canopy.

A rear riser landing, and a half braked rear riser landing are 2 different beasts in my book. Be super careful with the second.

And even more when one brake is still stowed and the other is released. A few years ago a german skydiver broke his back when he stalled his canopy. He flared with one riser and one toggle.