Andy9o8 2 #26 June 5, 2009 In my opinion, anyone who has not yet developed into a well-skilled, well-experienced canopy pilot should cut that away if they can't clear it by decision altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #27 June 5, 2009 Yea and the reason he broke is back most likely is because he knew shit about canopy skills, which is the problem with 90% of skydivers. You guys (everyone) don't take the time to care and only care about RW, sitflying, head down, etc. When your canopy is out you think the skydive is over and there's nothing else to work on, which is 100% wrong. You should be practicing at least 1 thing every time you're in the air. Preferably many more. The one fallacy I've made is not messing with rear risers, but I'm always playing with front risers and playing with my canopy. That's why I pull high so often and don't pull at 2000 feet like most people on a normal jump. The first thing I do when my canopy is opening/has opened is grab the front risers. Why? To be ready to steer away from an obstacle and have my hands on the risers ready to compensate for any issues that might have arrived with the opening. When I know everything is cool, which is usually less than 10 seconds, I'm popping breaks and making sure they work. How many people have died because they didn't know anything about handling their canopy and thought everything was a breeze now that it's opened? Seriously. That should be the MAIN thing you know more than anything else. Regardless of what people say with 500 jumps or 10,000, canopy skills are more important than anything you can do in free fall. I might only have 112 jumps, but I recognize this. It's sad when people have 300 jumps and all they've ever done is sit fly and strap on a camera at 200 jumps. That's not to say you shouldn't know how to spot and other such things too. You should. If you EVER land off, no matter what the case is, it's your fault, not the pilots. You got out of that plane in the first place. Deciding when, where and how to exit is the first priority. After that the only thing that really matters in free fall is knowing how not to hit someone else. After that, the real skydive starts, you don't live if you land on a fatal obstacle because you screwed up the two most important parts of the skydive. The reasons people die in this sport seem to be utterly ridiculous. It's what, normally under a canopy? Why is that? Because they thought being under the canopy was no more dangerous or hard than driving a lawn mower and lost their caution. I'm not saying I could land a canopy on risers, I don't know if I could and it would scare the shit out of me, but I'd know I had used them enough to at least not feel like I was in the dark entirely. People wonder why I say I want to do basic CRW (just to fly near other canopies). I want to do it, because I'd know what my canopy is doing and have a vantage point. I don't trust my RW skills, because I've pretty much not gave a damn and I won't normally jump with experienced jumpers because I don't want to screw up the dive and waste their money, especially on something I won't be practicing/care about again. Am I bad skydiver because of that? I don't think so personally, because I'm probably better at the more important things than those guys doing stuff in free fall all the time.Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnskydiver688 0 #28 June 5, 2009 How do you know you have a perfectly good reserve?Sky Canyon Wingsuiters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #29 June 5, 2009 QuoteHow do you know you have a perfectly good reserve? You don't. I've cut away once and the time I did do it, I feel was a mistake, even though the canopy kept turning and I wasn't sure why. Now I think maybe I didn't pop the breaks like I should have (I instinctively grab the front risers before anything else). I can't remember for sure. All I remember is pulling the risers a few times to get the canopy straight, looking up to see if I could see what was wrong, and thinking I've thought about it long enough. My cut away: dumb move imo. That reserve could have been in much worse shape for all I know.Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halfpastniner 0 #30 June 5, 2009 QuoteHow do you know you have a perfectly good reserve? Do it yourself? Or watch your rigger? Im not going to land a malfunctioning (even if only slightly) main because im afraid of my reserve not being good. Of course I also have seen mine packed and my rigger is meticulous as balls. Im not even sure how he makes money he is so thorough. IMO, no room for gear fearBASE 1384 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydivesg 7 #31 June 5, 2009 reply: The first thing I do when my canopy is opening/has opened is grab the front risers. Why? To be ready to steer away from an obstacle and have my hands on the risers ready to compensate for any issues that might have arrived with the opening. When I know everything is cool, which is usually less than 10 seconds, I'm popping breaks and making sure they work. ************************************* Chris, I like that your always thinking about and working on canopy flight. Kudos to you. However, I hope you don't mind some constructive advice. If you pull down on a front riser with both brakes stowed, the canopy will actually turn in the opposite direction. Now before everyone flames me about this please go up and try it. Using video a few years ago, I spent a fair number of jumps practicing this and researching why. There are areodynamic reasons, which I won't get into here. But suffice it to say it is not a myth. I would suggest all CAT manuveres during and imediatley after opening should be done on rear risers. Also Chris, explore your rear risers as much as possible. You'll soon find that they are as important as using your toogles. I would say that 65% of my canopy flight involves front and rear risers with the fronts most only used for my approach turn.Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hchunter614 0 #32 June 5, 2009 Isn't the fastest was to make anavoidance turn on opening by using the rear risers, not the fronts? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #33 June 5, 2009 >Isn't the fastest was to make an avoidance turn on opening by using the rear >risers, not the fronts? Yes. The rear risers are generally far more effective and less likely to cause malfunctions when used during opening. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #34 June 5, 2009 Quote However, I hope you don't mind some constructive advice. If you pull down on a front riser with both brakes stowed, the canopy will actually turn in the opposite direction. Really? Hm. I didn't know that. The main reason I've paid more attention to front risers and other things whenever I play around/practice to get to know my canopy is because the rears require massive strength on my canopy. I don't think I've ever pulled down on both fronts at the same time though, that's something to think about for sure. Rear risers better than front for avoidance? If that's true, I didn't know that either. With probably 60+ jumps concentrated on playing with these things, there's still plenty obvious stuff I don't know about... which is one reason I say people should be doing this stuff... you don't learn it just from flying your canopy 2000 feet and landing it. But someone tell me this. I know this is sort of controversial and everyone has a different opinion on everything, but is it a good idea for me to do basic CRW? When I say CRW, I actually mean just getting with people and flying "near" them at say 10,000 feet, maybe 50-100 ft away and practicing all of these things that way. I kind of feel like it's all good to practice braked turns, etc yourself, but it seems like it would be 100x more informative doing and having a clue what it's doing. The few I've asked about this say it's not a good idea, but I think they say that because most people's first CRW jump is one that consists of actually making contact with the other canopy, which I'm not cool with before I've got 50+ jumps playing around near someone.Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hchunter614 0 #35 June 5, 2009 I believe that one of the canopy flight objectives during the AFF progression is rear riser turns for collision avoidance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScottyE 0 #36 June 5, 2009 Quote How do you know you have a perfectly good reserve? Because I trust my rigger If you dont trust that your reserve is going to open Maybe you shouldnt chance jumping out of a perfectly good airplane yeah I know I havent seen your airplaneBottom line if it cant pass my controlability check I'm going to chop it! Reality is There are no guarantees in this sport and I realize that I'm 39 years old now and have no death wish if you think you can safely land your canopy with a stuck toggle more power to ya! Theres been plenty of great canopy pilots that are not with us any more because something went wrong under that Hi performance canopy right before landing I've had a brake toggle that I couldnt get loose the first two tries, I was contemplating chopping it but I had plenty of altitude so I chose to work the problem ,on the third pull it popped loose! If I could not have got it by my decision altitude I would have chopped it. In the End its your ass on the line, follow your training listen to that little voice in your head and hopfully live to jump again Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #37 June 5, 2009 I carry some extra line in all of my jump suits just for this. If i can't unseat my toggle i'll simply cut the line that is stowed and rie me a quick half hitch and use that for my steering line, i've done this more than once. One time, i just yanked it loose tearing it away from the risers, that worked as well.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #38 June 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteTheres been plenty of great canopy pilots that are not with us any more because something went wrong under that Hi performance canopy right before landing I'm sure, but there's also a vast majority of those that probably passed entirely because of another jumper. And I hate to say it, but it's a fact; if you're jumping a high performance canopy - all bets are off. You're waiting to splat. It's just a matter of time. The only way to live longer is to not jump that HP canopy before it's good and well time and to know your canopy like you designed it. I know thousands of skydivers would disagree, but a HP canopy is a HP canopy. You break a leg, you can't really complain, you we're jumping a HP. You swoop that HP and get hurt, you can't complain. It's like you're a jet fighter pilot. You might log 1,000 hours in one, but 1,001 might be the last and the odds are for it. If you've got 3000 jumps on a HP canopy, my opinion is that you're lucky and probably smart. Personally, I'm sticking with my 175 for a very long time. I jump a 160 now and then, but you won't see me go to a 150 for at least another 5-10 years and that's IF and when I have 3000 jumps and am so current that I'm jumping 10 times a week.Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #39 June 6, 2009 >If i can't unseat my toggle i'll simply cut the line that is stowed and rie me a >quick half hitch and use that for my steering line . . . Not a bad idea! The line could come in handy in other ways as well. For example, in a lineover, you could tie a Prusik knot on the offending line, cut the line below the knot, let it fly away (and therefore let the canopy open normally) then stall the canopy and recapture the line as it flies back into you. Tie it off at the appropriate riser and you are good to go.* (* - obligatory warning; that advice is not meant to be taken seriously!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #40 June 6, 2009 QuoteI carry some extra line in all of my jump suits just for this. If i can't unseat my toggle i'll simply cut the line that is stowed and rie me a quick half hitch and use that for my steering line, i've done this more than once. One time, i just yanked it loose tearing it away from the risers, that worked as well. Pretty serious in-air rigging. But you have over 1,000 jumps. What minimum level experience should a canopy pilot have before attempting this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hallux 0 #41 June 6, 2009 if able to unstow a brake you should learn to pack. Or you should take a hammer and hit your packer in the taint. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chrismgtis 0 #42 June 6, 2009 Quoteif able to unstow a brake you should learn to pack. Or you should take a hammer and hit your packer in the taint. I agree with that. :) There was one time where I put mine on weird and I had to thread it back through (hard to explain). No big deal at all, but kinda funny.Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #43 June 6, 2009 QuoteIf you pull down on a front riser with both brakes stowed, the canopy will actually turn in the opposite direction.. Interesting. I know my canopy bucks like crazy on fronts if I have toggle input as well but I didn't know that it turns the opposite way. But generally front riser input makes you go faster and I'd have thought that faster is the last thing you want when flying towards someone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chrismgtis 0 #44 June 7, 2009 Did I say I turn with rear risers? I jumped today, looked up at where I had already grabbed the front risers and thought...why did I tell them rear? I've obviously not been jumping too much. 12-15 skydives in a year. Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites humanflite 0 #45 June 7, 2009 Quote Did I say I turn with rear risers? I jumped today, looked up at where I had already grabbed the front risers and thought...why did I tell them rear? I've obviously not been jumping too much. 12-15 skydives in a year. Erm... no. You said you turned after opening with front risers... and you should be using rear risers for avoidance turns Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Parafoil27 0 #46 June 7, 2009 I actually had the same thing happen on jump #14 I just held the other toggle at half brakes so i could fly straight while i checked for other canopies. Once i realized i had a lot of altitude and room to work on getting it loose i messed with it for a minute and ended up fixing it. My instructor told me i could land that canopy on rears but anything smaller chop it. EARTH! Short bus of the universe, since the year T+10.3 billion! REV. DUDEMIESTER D.S.#120 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chrismgtis 0 #47 June 8, 2009 Quote Quote Did I say I turn with rear risers? I jumped today, looked up at where I had already grabbed the front risers and thought...why did I tell them rear? I've obviously not been jumping too much. 12-15 skydives in a year. Erm... no. You said you turned after opening with front risers... and you should be using rear risers for avoidance turns Wait a minute, I meant I use rears. I think...Yea pretty sure. Damn I'm confused. I'll look again next time. Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rwieder 0 #48 June 8, 2009 I always keep two made up and some extra line from an old canopy in my jump suit in case i drop something, which i'm prone to do. -Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #49 June 8, 2009 Quote>How do you propose to wrap the released brake line? Wrap it around the riser. Grab the toggle again when you are done, and then grab the entire riser (including the wrapped line) and prepare to flare with that. I've done that as a test and it works pretty well. I would avoid knots and the like. Bill, Just out of curiosity, Why do you recommend wrapping line around risers as opposed to taking hand wraps as mentioned by someone earlier?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #50 June 8, 2009 >Why do you recommend wrapping line around risers as opposed to >taking hand wraps as mentioned by someone earlier? Just because I've tried it and it seems to work. Wraps around your hand should work just as well, although I would worry about doing that if you are thinking you might not be able to land the canopy and decide to cut it away. That would be a bad time to find out that you can't unwrap the line. (Unlikely but possible.) The bad scenario would be: -"Uh oh, stuck brake line." -take wraps on the free line to shorten it -practice flares -"Hmm, doesn't flare very well on risers; better chop it." -"Damn, now the stupid line won't come off my hand." However if you are certain you're going to land it that's not an issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
billvon 2,991 #39 June 6, 2009 >If i can't unseat my toggle i'll simply cut the line that is stowed and rie me a >quick half hitch and use that for my steering line . . . Not a bad idea! The line could come in handy in other ways as well. For example, in a lineover, you could tie a Prusik knot on the offending line, cut the line below the knot, let it fly away (and therefore let the canopy open normally) then stall the canopy and recapture the line as it flies back into you. Tie it off at the appropriate riser and you are good to go.* (* - obligatory warning; that advice is not meant to be taken seriously!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #40 June 6, 2009 QuoteI carry some extra line in all of my jump suits just for this. If i can't unseat my toggle i'll simply cut the line that is stowed and rie me a quick half hitch and use that for my steering line, i've done this more than once. One time, i just yanked it loose tearing it away from the risers, that worked as well. Pretty serious in-air rigging. But you have over 1,000 jumps. What minimum level experience should a canopy pilot have before attempting this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hallux 0 #41 June 6, 2009 if able to unstow a brake you should learn to pack. Or you should take a hammer and hit your packer in the taint. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #42 June 6, 2009 Quoteif able to unstow a brake you should learn to pack. Or you should take a hammer and hit your packer in the taint. I agree with that. :) There was one time where I put mine on weird and I had to thread it back through (hard to explain). No big deal at all, but kinda funny.Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #43 June 6, 2009 QuoteIf you pull down on a front riser with both brakes stowed, the canopy will actually turn in the opposite direction.. Interesting. I know my canopy bucks like crazy on fronts if I have toggle input as well but I didn't know that it turns the opposite way. But generally front riser input makes you go faster and I'd have thought that faster is the last thing you want when flying towards someone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #44 June 7, 2009 Did I say I turn with rear risers? I jumped today, looked up at where I had already grabbed the front risers and thought...why did I tell them rear? I've obviously not been jumping too much. 12-15 skydives in a year. Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
humanflite 0 #45 June 7, 2009 Quote Did I say I turn with rear risers? I jumped today, looked up at where I had already grabbed the front risers and thought...why did I tell them rear? I've obviously not been jumping too much. 12-15 skydives in a year. Erm... no. You said you turned after opening with front risers... and you should be using rear risers for avoidance turns Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parafoil27 0 #46 June 7, 2009 I actually had the same thing happen on jump #14 I just held the other toggle at half brakes so i could fly straight while i checked for other canopies. Once i realized i had a lot of altitude and room to work on getting it loose i messed with it for a minute and ended up fixing it. My instructor told me i could land that canopy on rears but anything smaller chop it. EARTH! Short bus of the universe, since the year T+10.3 billion! REV. DUDEMIESTER D.S.#120 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #47 June 8, 2009 Quote Quote Did I say I turn with rear risers? I jumped today, looked up at where I had already grabbed the front risers and thought...why did I tell them rear? I've obviously not been jumping too much. 12-15 skydives in a year. Erm... no. You said you turned after opening with front risers... and you should be using rear risers for avoidance turns Wait a minute, I meant I use rears. I think...Yea pretty sure. Damn I'm confused. I'll look again next time. Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #48 June 8, 2009 I always keep two made up and some extra line from an old canopy in my jump suit in case i drop something, which i'm prone to do. -Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #49 June 8, 2009 Quote>How do you propose to wrap the released brake line? Wrap it around the riser. Grab the toggle again when you are done, and then grab the entire riser (including the wrapped line) and prepare to flare with that. I've done that as a test and it works pretty well. I would avoid knots and the like. Bill, Just out of curiosity, Why do you recommend wrapping line around risers as opposed to taking hand wraps as mentioned by someone earlier?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #50 June 8, 2009 >Why do you recommend wrapping line around risers as opposed to >taking hand wraps as mentioned by someone earlier? Just because I've tried it and it seems to work. Wraps around your hand should work just as well, although I would worry about doing that if you are thinking you might not be able to land the canopy and decide to cut it away. That would be a bad time to find out that you can't unwrap the line. (Unlikely but possible.) The bad scenario would be: -"Uh oh, stuck brake line." -take wraps on the free line to shorten it -practice flares -"Hmm, doesn't flare very well on risers; better chop it." -"Damn, now the stupid line won't come off my hand." However if you are certain you're going to land it that's not an issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
