Kennedy 0 #51 December 15, 2003 Yeah, what he said. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #52 December 15, 2003 As a bullet decelarates it will turn around as the center of gravity establishs itself if fired directly upwards once the momentum runs out. The bullet would tumble end over end as the air resistence underneath built up then turned the bullet to escape, the center of gravity would then take over and so on until inpact. To see this effect look at X rays of GSW victims. The bullet usualy turns around to face the enterance wound as it decelerates inside the body. Often leading inexperienced Drs and Radiographers to look for entrance wounds that do not exist! When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #53 December 15, 2003 >In northern Kirkuk, eight people were killed and 80 wounded by >shots fired in the air during celebrations of the capture . . . Would be interesting to know what angle they were fired at. I imagine a slug fired at a 10 degree angle above the horizon would retain much of its speed when it returned to ground level, whereas a slug fired straight up wouldn't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #54 December 15, 2003 >>Would be interesting to know what angle they were fired at. I imagine a slug fired at a 10 degree angle above the horizon would retain much of its speed when it returned to ground level, whereas a slug fired straight up wouldn't. << Yeah - we have (at least) two different discussions going on simultaneously. The first is whether a bullet in freefall would kill someone. I say probably not. The second is whether a bullet instantaneously becomes harmless after apogee. I say definitely not. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #55 December 15, 2003 Quote>In northern Kirkuk, eight people were killed and 80 wounded by >shots fired in the air during celebrations of the capture . . . Would be interesting to know what angle they were fired at. I imagine a slug fired at a 10 degree angle above the horizon would retain much of its speed when it returned to ground level, whereas a slug fired straight up wouldn't. Ten degrees is not that much elevation for rifles. For just about every shot, the barrel is slightly elevated, creating an arc rather than a simple drop. (hence the ridiculous belief that bullet magically rise after leaving the barrel) Desired distance dictates barrel elevation. Maximum distance for an M-16 comes from approximately 40 degrees.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #56 December 15, 2003 QuoteMaximum distance for an M-16 comes from approximately 40 degrees. Not on the moon. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #57 December 15, 2003 do you just like contradicting me? With the lesser gravity and greater curvature, greatest distance is probably 180 degrees. I'm guessing it would pass escape velocity. But if you want to be a pain, just come out and say "not in space." rephrase: Assuming downward acceleration of 9.8, air pressure matching the earth's surface, L&V wind, and curvature matching that of the earth, maximum range from the M-16 is achieved by firing at a 40 degree incline.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #58 December 15, 2003 I heard a news account of a guy in our town who was struck by a stray bullet in the shoulder. It didn't penetrate but left a big bruise. I would imagine this was fired from a steep angle, probably ran out of energy and fell to earth. I wish I knew the caliber but this wasn't given in the report. I KNEW another guy who was hit by a stray bullet that came flying out of nowhere over a ridge, when he was hunting. He wasn't as lucky and died. He was hit squarely in the chest and it penetrated his heart. I don't know if there was an exit wound, or what caliber. It was probably a big game round that had plenty of energy left. It's all too easy to get excited when hunting and shoot without thinking what's beyond your target. Most folks don't realize a big game round can shoot three or four miles. Just another reason to be careful......Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
harryskydives 0 #59 December 16, 2003 As it was raining here this past weekend, i watched too much news. The news showed many people firing in celerbration, Mostly Ak-47, some hand guns and some mac-10 lookings things. The AK seemed to be fired about 60-70 degree. They seemed to have no concern for where they were firing, ( not looking where they were firing). What kind of mind set do these people have when they can bust a cap not knowing who or what are down range. Must be Allah's will if some one dies. Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyThomas 0 #60 December 16, 2003 don't know if this is true or not, maybe the AZ people can comment. http://phoenix.gov/NEWSREL/randm.html Seems like there has been "research" into this, and results are in. I think it has happened before in other places....just can't cite where and when yet. Thomas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #61 December 16, 2003 >What kind of mind set do these people have when they can bust a >cap not knowing who or what are down range. ?? Coal power plants kill about 30,000 people a year in the US due to their particulate and heavy-metals pollution, mostly people who live near the power plants. We seem OK with that. I regularly see people have a few beers and drive home from the DZ, even though 15,000 people die every year in alcohol-related accidents - and often take innocent people with them. Different cultures, different levels of acceptance of risk. Besides, we have a few areas here in the US that could give Iraq a run for their money in the grand old sport of firing into the air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyThomas 0 #62 December 16, 2003 What about this incident in Phoenix ? Is this an isolated incident, or has anyone ever heard of this happening elsewhere? Thomas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #63 December 16, 2003 Sure. It can happen anytime someone doesn't follow basic rules of safe firearms handling. Scroll through the thread. There are anecdotes about it happening elsewhere. In case you haven't read the entire thread, this one started out as a discussion about a bullet in freefall, which is very different from a bullet coming down in an uninterrupted arc.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyThomas 0 #64 December 16, 2003 Looks like LA has had problems with this also. edit: OK, I just read the rest of the thread. Thanks for the pointer. I know, I'm supposed to always read whole thread before posting....I read first page and the ADD kicked in. Thomas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #65 December 16, 2003 :::raising hand::: I've been guilty as well, no worries.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
harryskydives 0 #66 December 16, 2003 a few areas here in the US that could give Iraq a run for their money in the grand old sport of firing into the air. the cries of 'Yeeeee-haw!' procede a shotgun blast, allowing for a louder more full-bodied sound. It is true that we did this quite frequently in tennessee, but only with a shotgun, and only towards a field. I never heard of a cow, dog or person being hurt. But, we did not have the internet. Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiverRick 0 #67 December 16, 2003 Quote>What kind of mind set do these people have when they can bust a >cap not knowing who or what are down range. ?? Coal power plants kill about 30,000 people a year in the US due to their particulate and heavy-metals pollution, mostly people who live near the power plants. We seem OK with that. I regularly see people have a few beers and drive home from the DZ, even though 15,000 people die every year in alcohol-related accidents - and often take innocent people with them. Different cultures, different levels of acceptance of risk. Besides, we have a few areas here in the US that could give Iraq a run for their money in the grand old sport of firing into the air. It's still stupid to fire a gun without looking where the barrel is pointed. never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #68 December 16, 2003 two of the universal basic firearms safety rules: Never point your firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy. Never pull the trigger unless you are sure of your target and what is beyond.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #69 December 16, 2003 Quotea few areas here in the US that could give Iraq a run for their money in the grand old sport of firing into the air. the cries of 'Yeeeee-haw!' procede a shotgun blast, allowing for a louder more full-bodied sound. It is true that we did this quite frequently in tennessee, but only with a shotgun, and only towards a field. I never heard of a cow, dog or person being hurt. But, we did not have the internet. This post made me laugh. I imagine the returning shot would be much less harmfull then a bullet.... fire a buck-shot out of that shotgun though, and I'm running for the hills! My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #70 December 18, 2003 Quote"In northern Kirkuk, eight people were killed and 80 wounded by shots fired in the air during celebrations of the capture, said hospital official Shehab Ahmed." So from this "experiment", we could say that if you are hit by a freefalling bullet, you have only a 10% chance of being killed by it. That fits with my experiment and conclusion that your odds of being killed are low. Of course, the heavier the bullet, the worse your odds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #71 December 18, 2003 and minus the fact that very few of these rounds were fired 'straight up' which decreases the odds even more..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pi-314 0 #72 January 2, 2004 I was checking into this idea that freefalling bullets kill, when I ran into this thread and noticed your experiment. There are a few things you didn't take into account. One of them is in regards to the (spin end over end) when releasing the bullet. It is important to note that you released the bullets when they were already falling at 120 MPH, as opposed to a bullet that reaches it's highest point and begins to drop from zero velocity. A bullet drop from zero velocity will have a much greater chance of becoming stable and drop with the base of the bullet facing the earth, than one released from a standpoint of air passing it at 120 MPH. If you let go of the bullet at 120 MPH, and if it isn't in what would be a stable position to begin with - It will spin end over end from the start with perhaps no chance of stability before it hits the ground. In effect you lose perhaps 50% of it's potential velocity from the get go. A more important point to be made is your body dropping next to the bullet is contaminating the experiment. When you are in freefall - There is a greater air pressure created below you as you drop, while you in effect created a sort of vaccum above your body. This creates a sort of wind tunnel around you. I.E. The air below you rushes past you to fill the vaccum above you. Although you may be dropping at 120 MPH - The air around could be passing at say 180 MPH in relation to you. So the bullet could be dropping at 180 MPH in relation to the air thats moving at 60 MPH to fill the vaccum above you. Hence - You will see the bullet as if it is falling slower than you, when in reality it's moving 180 MPH in relation to the air. When the bullet gets to an area of calmer air ( away from you). It will accelerate in relation to the calmer air. It could concievably catch up to you if it could fall away from the disturbance you created during your fall. If you put the bullet on your back side - It should stay there. considering there is a bit of a vaccum there. I'm guessing bullets will drop anywhere from 150 to 300 MPH, and anything above 200 MPH has a fairly good chance of taking you out, should it hit you in the noggin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pop 0 #73 January 2, 2004 I think the only difference is that rather having the bullet speed up to terminal, it had to slow down. Eited to say. No matter if you relesease the bullet at 120 MPH or let it begins it's path from 0 MPH, it will never fall in a stable position, but will tumble. The only thing that makes a bullet stable is the spin that is put on it by the barrel of a gun. Allowing the bullet to go up, stop and fall back down will also completly reduce the spoin, this making the bullet fall back down in an unpredictable radical tumble.7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #74 January 2, 2004 Quote The only thing that makes a bullet stable is the spin that is put on it by the barrel of a gun. Allowing the bullet to go up, stop and fall back down will also completly reduce the spoin, this making the bullet fall back down in an unpredictable radical tumble. But most times, a bullet fired into the air is not fired "straight up" into the air. It is given an arc or a trajectory. It does not "stop and fall back down", a portion of the horizontal vector is maintained... and the bullet keeps spinning. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pop 0 #75 January 2, 2004 Maybe you are right, but I would imagine the spin of the bullet slows down at least, thus making it more unstable. However, I am no expert. :)7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
