Are PLFs necessary anymore?

[billvon 2,991]

> Why do we teach how to land straight down when we don't land straight
>down anymore?

Most students land closer to straight down than anything else.

>Why not focus on good landings rather than plan for a bad one?

I guess for the same reason we teach emergency procedures, and how to deal with landing in a tree. Because such things do happen even to the best intentioned student.

That being said, nowadays I tend to emphasize the beginnings of the PLF (feet and knees together, knees bent, angled off to one side, hands in your crotch, elbows in) over the actual roll because that works for both high forward speed landings and PLF's. If they come straight down, they bend at the knees and collapse, and hopefully they remember the second part of it (rolling.) If they come in fast, they land with their feet and knees together on their side, which is a good position to slide in.

[diablopilot 2]

Because Kim, almost all of the AFF students I've seen injured upon landing did not execute a PLF, and they would have saved them selves much of the injury if they had done so. PLF's do not simply address a Vertical landing, but one with a horizontal component as well.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Chubba 0]

I've been dumped quite bad twice in my small amount of jumps.

Both times the winds weren't probably in my jumpable range, but I know that now looking back. Come into final on my Sabre2 (which normally planes out at half brakes for me), flare, nothing AT ALL happens and I drop like a rock.

Feet/knee's together and roll is what has saved me from broken bones or possibly not being able to walk again.

[tbrown 26]

Sometimes everything just goes wrong all at once and a good PLF is your only way out. Long ago I collapsed 60% of a 5 cell canopy. It was high enough that I tried once to pump it back to life, then I got into a do or die PLF posture. Hit the ground so hard I bounced. It took a few minutes, but I did get up and walk away, for "medication" in a friend's van. I was wearing sneakers and a hockey helmet (jumpsuit too). A PLF can save your heinie when the chips are down.

Though nowadays I do try to slide on my side, I call it "stealing 3rd base". I'm a rather big tall guy and find the traditional PLF tends to flip me almost completely over for a very hard landing that could just as easily injure my neck, shoulders, or collarbone.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[rmarshall234 14]

>Are PLF's necessary anymore?

From personal experience I'd say yes. Especially when you screw up.

Example #1, 30th jump: I hook-turned a Paracommander in 20 knot winds to avoid power lines. Although it was a round canopy, the lateral speed was greater than the vertical speed and a PLF saved my ass. I was bruised from ankle to shoulder on my right side and had knocked myself out, but didn’t break any bones. I learned a lot of lessons on that day…..and have believed in PLF’s ever since.

Example #2, 430th jump: I elected to land my 7 cell Pegasus when the outboard C&D lines hung up on the poker chip of the stabilizer. It seemed like an okay decision at the time, since I could control it with opposite toggle. The canopy ride seemed all fully short though, with the last 200 ft of the descent almost entirely vertical and fast. A PLF saved me again, more lessons learned….

“Learn from the mistakes of others, you can’t live long enough to make them all yourself” Willy and Ethyl

[format 1]

It is necessary.

You never know for sure your landing areNa:
Bullanding

What goes around, comes later.

[Chubba 0]

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Because Kim, almost all of the AFF students I've seen injured upon landing did not execute a PLF, and they would have saved them selves much of the injury if they had done so. PLF's do not simply address a Vertical landing, but one with a horizontal component as well.

Well it's simple, if you don't roll it out, you either land with your legs = broken, or land on your ass = in a wheelchair.

The human body is capable of rolling out some extreme speeds, especially horiztonal.

A lot of the time PLF's look worse then they actually feel.

I think it's a simple question.

[lowpull 0]

Who ever taught your FJC did you a great dis-service.
PLFs are mandatory for the class.

Period.

I have a trick that really helps teach why PLFs are so important.
Me:
"Ok, now we come to the spot in class where we learn to master the dreaded PLF.PLF stands for 'Parachute Landing Fall', but I am going to teach it to you in such a way that you won't be as likely to forget it, and, you will understand whento use it, and why you will need to..
PLF really stands for 'Pretty Lousy Flare'"

This is where I get a few laughs, and soften them up for the next 1/2 hour or so, where the nice people in my class really start to not like me.
I am pretty strict about making sure all my students know how to safely plf both directions, and we talk about what to do if they find themselves having to do it backwards.

Sorry, if I rambled a bit.

Hope some of this helps.

ralph

[ufk22 33]

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It is neither a joke nor a stir-the-pot post. It is a question posed for the sole purpose of initiating a discussion which might educate someone. I did not say I oppose PLFs. I asked a question and asked for discussion. The question has been posed on the DZ from time to time and I felt it was a good question. So far there have been some very good reasons posted in favor of them. When a newbie asks the question, it might be a good idea to have an answer. Is it an entirely stupid question? Please note I was not advocating anything one way or another. I was initiating a discussion. To that end I succeeded.

I jump a Stiletto 120 because when I bought it it was the scariest state-of-the art thing available and now I can't afford a new toy every thirty seconds when they come out, and I can still scare the shit out of myself on that puppy. Color me crazy, but I am not one of those desperate consumers who must, must, must have the latest thing. I can live with my Stiletto 120.

Didn't mean to piss you off...
I've seen plenty of provocative posts thrown out just to get people riled up.
The fact that you've been in the sport 20 years means you must have seen more than a couple of people hurt themselves because of NOT doing a good PLF on landing.
My reference to your canopy wasn't a put-down. I jump a Stiletto 150. The Stiletto was and still is a high performance canopy, just no longer the highest performance. You say you scare yourself on it. A PLF can and will save you when the corner gets too close and there aren't any outs.
Bottom line, to carry your original thought to it's logical conclusion, would be that we quit teaching emergency procedures because the equipment is a lot safer today, and spending all that time on plan B (emergency procedures) isn't necessary.
To quote your original post;
"After all, having a plan B is planning on failing plan A."

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[The_Don 0]

Great post.

Learned the backwards PLF on my own.

The hard way. The rig took the major damage = $500.

Cheaper than broken bones.

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[popsjumper 2]

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Because Kim, almost all of the AFF students I've seen injured upon landing did not execute a PLF, and they would have saved them selves much of the injury if they had done so. PLF's do not simply address a Vertical landing, but one with a horizontal component as well.

Bingo! I read the entire thread up to this point wondering if it was going to be me in the end that brought up the horizontal component.

I don't remember any no-wind landings in the T-10 days so all my PLFs back then were with forward motion...well, sometimes sideways and sometimes backwards but horizontal motion nonetheless.

So put me solidly in the camp of PLF training and practice for students....AND for expereienced jumpers who may have forgotten how or why the skill is necessary.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[SStewart 13]

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Just putting this out there for discussion: How relevant is a PLF considering the descent rate & glide ratio of ram-air canopies as opposed to the rounds when a PLF was vital? Why do we teach how to land straight down when we don't land straight down anymore? With the glide ratio under ram-air canopies the opportunity to do a PLF is nil. Not a clean, good PLF, anyway. Momentum and trajectory alone will negate the chance to even try. So, why?

Why not focus on good landings rather than plan for a bad one especially one that won't really have the characteristics which would necessitate a decent PLF? After all, having a plan B is planning on failing plan A

I can't believe we are even discussing this....

What is next?

Why not just focus on good openings so we don't need to worry about emergency procedures? After all what could possibly go wrong?

Onward and Upward!

[DSE 5]

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Bottom line, to carry your original thought to it's logical conclusion, would be that we quit teaching emergency procedures because the equipment is a lot safer today, and spending all that time on plan B (emergency procedures) isn't necessary.
To quote your original post;
"After all, having a plan B is planning on failing plan A."

At the same time (I believe PLF's should be taught no matter what), should a discussion of high-speed forward motion landings should be given equal time? Flaring high (saw a nasty landing from high flare just today), and not flaring, flaring late, downwind are all as equally likely.
Do you think it's appropriate to ignore scenarios where a proper PLF isn't going to help, and may hurt?

[SStewart 13]

Absolutely nothing wrong with modifying the technique as equipment and skills evolve.
But to abdandon the concept altogether?

If anything PLF's should be more important now than ever before, canopy landing injuries and fatalities today make the old gear seem safer.

To even suggest that we won't come straight down on a modern canopy is absurd. It happens all the time and a good PLF can be the difference between a hard landing and a serious or even fatal injury.

These are survival skills that should be more important than how many points we can turn.

Feet and knees together!

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end of rant

Onward and Upward!

[DSE 5]

Apparently I'm missing a post; I don't see anywhere that anyone is suggesting "to abandon the concept altogether?"

It's equally if not more absurd to dismiss that under modern parachutes, landings will contain equal or more forward energy than downward energy, yet no one wants to talk about it as anything but a "PLF."
"Modifying the technique" isn't what it is, IMO. It's a different technique entirely.

It's easy to test;
Come to the DZ.
I'll drive my truck (33" from tailgate to ground, less than the height from which we learn to PLF) over the grass landing area at a speed of 15mph (an approximated speed of landing).
You'll jump off the back of the tailgate facing the direction of the truck's travel.
Land on the balls of your feet,
rotate to your calf,
rotate to your thigh,
then hips.butt,
then butt,
Elbows/shoulder (the five points of a PLF)
and we'll see if your body stops there and without injury.
We both know it won't.

Additional techniques should be taught or at least discussed. I believe that's the nature of Kimemerson's question. Why dismiss it so readily?

It makes sense to question the validity of vertical descent training without recognizing horizontal movement given that so much of the energy is horizontal.

[Baksteen 84]

The OP is (IMO) clearly implying to abandon PLF's, if only for argument's sake in the last sentence:

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Why not focus on good landings rather than plan for a bad one, especially one that won't really have the characteristics which would necessitate a decent PLF? After all, having a plan B is planning on failing plan A.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[DSE 5]

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The OP is (IMO) clearly implying to abandon PLF's, if only for argument's sake in the last sentence:

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Why not focus on good landings rather than plan for a bad one, especially one that won't really have the characteristics which would necessitate a decent PLF? After all, having a plan B is planning on failing plan A.

I don't read it the same way you do. I read it as having alternative/secondary methods.
I feel his point is at the least worthy of a valid discussion rather than beating it down and summarily dismissing it.
What is the comparative percentage of"straight down" landings you've experienced vs "O' shit I flared too late and am still moving forward" or "O shit, I'm flying downwind and know I can't run it out?"
How many legstraps are stained with streaks of grass due to forward movement and slides? I know I've surely seen a lot of them, haven't you?
Teaching people how to slide in and avoid injury to the coccyx, pelvis, spine is (IMO) as important as teaching a proper PLF, if not moreso.

[skybytch 273]

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Teaching people how to slide in and avoid injury to the coccyx, pelvis, spine is (IMO) as important as teaching a proper PLF, if not moreso.

Okay, but when do you propose to teach this to them?

During the FJC? imho, not a good idea to add yet another thing to remember to the already overwhelming amount of information that we throw at them ("crap, I flared too high/too low, am I supposed to PLF or slide? I don't remember!" Crash...). Most first jump students are going to land at a fairly slow speed; the PLF is far more likely to keep them from breaking if the flare is less than perfect.

I can see teaching a slide technique prior to clearing them for self-supervision though, since that's when they're going to start flying smaller, faster canopies.

[SStewart 13]

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Teaching people how to slide in and avoid injury to the coccyx, pelvis, spine is (IMO) as important as teaching a proper PLF, if not moreso.

Okay, but when do you propose to teach this to them?

During the FJC? imho, not a good idea to add yet another thing to remember to the already overwhelming amount of information that we throw at them ("crap, I flared too high/too low, am I supposed to PLF or slide? I don't remember!" Crash...). Most first jump students are going to land at a fairly slow speed; the PLF is far more likely to keep them from breaking if the flare is less than perfect.

I can see teaching a slide technique prior to clearing them for self-supervision though, since that's when they're going to start flying smaller, faster canopies.

Exactly!

We are talking about students here and the assumption is they will be jumping large docile student canopies. The PLF is still the best method available to avoid injury.

Onward and Upward!

[billvon 2,991]

>How many legstraps are stained with streaks of grass due to forward
>movement and slides?

Intermediate jumper's rigs often show those streaks. Student rigs often show more plain ol' dirt from pounding into the ground.

[CDRINF 1]

Even if canopies change, the principles of how to protect your body in a fall remain the same and apply to parachuting or something like gymnastics or martial arts. Feet and knees to gether to absorb shock evenly. Elbows in and hands in close to the body. This helps fight the temptation to throw your arms in front to catch yourself, thus absorbing all of the shock on your hands and wrists. Also prevents flayling arms from smacking the ground and busting an elbow. Head tucked, chin on chest to help prevent a whiplash to your neck. Hit and roll on the fleshy parts of the body, rather than than the bony parts. Let the momentum of the fall carry you rather than fighting against it.

.....Or you can just bite it and land like a sack of shit; feet, knees, hands, head.

CDR

[DSE 5]

I don't know when it should be taught as I haven't given it that much thought.
It's worth a discussion, IMO.
Turning on an AAD isn't part of the FJC either, nor was understanding an RSL part of my FJC,
As new equipment comes along, so must new methods or components of instruction.
Anyone that believes that a "proper PLF" is the best answer to botched forward landings ought to jump off a truck and see how it works out for them.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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I think that many folks don't understand the dynamic of what you're suggesting. We still teach PLF's in the FJC, yet we also talk about how that information translates/changes with forward motion. Being able to "slide in" on your side and perform a PLF-like landing with significant forward speed is certainly different than jumping off a 4' platform and being able to roll to five points of contact.
I've got video of a young woman doing a "by the book" PLF while landing downwind. She rolled onto her shoulder which in turn put her feet into the air, she bounced on to her head and consequently put out a hand. And broke her wrist.
Had she slid in on her thigh rolling to the side she'd have been much better off.

Her problem was that she didn't PLF a second time

PLF's are necessary. Sliding on your thigh makes it much more likely that you will bust a femur. On a high speed landing, the PLF isn't over after the first roll, you need to be prepared to PLF each time your body is going to hit the ground.

I wish I could explain this better. Anyway, PLF's have always been natural for me. I was a gymnast when I was younger. Trampoline and tumbling. It should be instinctive.

[steve1 5]

.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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Even if canopies change, the principles of how to protect your body in a fall remain the same and apply to parachuting or something like gymnastics or martial arts. Feet and knees to gether to absorb shock evenly. Elbows in and hands in close to the body. This helps fight the temptation to throw your arms in front to catch yourself, thus absorbing all of the shock on your hands and wrists. Also prevents flayling arms from smacking the ground and busting an elbow. Head tucked, chin on chest to help prevent a whiplash to your neck. Hit and roll on the fleshy parts of the body, rather than than the bony parts. Let the momentum of the fall carry you rather than fighting against it.

.....Or you can just bite it and land like a sack of shit; feet, knees, hands, head.

CDR

Exactly. When I was 19, a half-blind old fart made a left turn in front of my motorcycle. That's when I was on the gymnastics team and working out four hours a day tumbling I didn't even have to think about it; I PLF'd over the hood of his car, then PLF'd over the windshield and once again as I hit the pavement. Walked away with minor scratches.

Many skydivers would hurt themselves even practicing PLF's because they are not really limber enough to do them properly (hell, they can't even fit themselves into a 182 without hurting themselves!) ... too much beer

The experienced guys don't practice PLF's during actual landings because they want to look cool and don't want to get their gear dirty. The students watch them jumping without ever doing PLF's, so it's nearly impossible to train the students to practice PLF's enough to make them automatic.