Are PLFs necessary anymore?

[DSE 5]

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PLF's are necessary. Sliding on your thigh makes it much more likely that you will bust a femur. On a high speed landing, the PLF isn't over after the first roll, you need to be prepared to PLF each time your body is going to hit the ground.

I disagree.
I've been told more than once that a heel/calf/thigh/butt, shoulder slide is "more likely" to break a femur. I'd like to see data to support this statement, I don't believe it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that a long "alternative landing plan" be added to the FJC. I am advocating a discussion of botched forward motion landings and how to best manage them. I don't believe a proper PLF is the answer.

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don't think the PLF was ever designed for coming straight down.

Then you and the military studies at the time (and more recent studies in 2003) would be in disagreement. "Straight down" is relative.

I'll abandon the topic now.
PLF's are apparently the only acceptable landing plan for a botched flare, downwind, collapse due to rotor, or any other landing problem. I disagree with that concept, but democracy and all that.
I would like to see any advocate of PLF-only as being the only acceptable, jump off a moving truck bed in the "line of flight" instead of saying "he/she shoulda done this, that, and the other thing while doing their PLF..."
Thank Kim, for bringing up a subject that we talk about quite a bit at our DZ.

Questioning the norm is how we learn new things.

[billvon 3,028]

>Turning on an AAD isn't part of the FJC either . . .

Really? It's part of ours. We explain how it works and then I show the student I'm turning it on (provided it's off when we start gearing up, that is.)

>Anyone that believes that a "proper PLF" is the best answer to botched
>forward landings ought to jump off a truck and see how it works out for
>them.

It's better than what a student will do naturally, which is to reach for the ground with his toes while putting his hands out to "break his fall." (Try that off the back of a truck!)

[MomDaBomb 0]

PLF's have confused me since day one. If I always plan to PLF, how will I learn to land any other way? My last jump I flared just a second to late. I didn't know it was too late until it was too late. If that makes sense. I had no control over my body at that point.

[Darius11 12]

I still do them when needed. It has saved my ass more then once, and it is always better to get back up and dust your self off then not be able to get back up at all.

As for the forward speed, even in that case it has saved me from getting hurt.


As they say "The shit works" so why not learn it.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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I would like to see any advocate of PLF-only as being the only acceptable, jump off a moving truck bed in the "line of flight" instead of saying "he/she shoulda done this, that, and the other thing while doing their PLF..."

I'll do it, if it will convince you. I'll send you the video clip. In the meantime, please don't talk to any of my students.

[popsjumper 2]

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I would like to see any advocate of PLF-only as being the only acceptable, jump off a moving truck bed in the "line of flight" instead of saying "he/she shoulda done this, that, and the other thing while doing their PLF..."

I'll do it, if it will convince you. I'll send you the video clip. In the meantime, please don't talk to any of my students.

Nope. Don't do it. Let the originator of the idea do it since he seems to think he has a safer way of doing it... slide-in from 33 inches off a truck doing 15mph.
Besides, he's passable with video I hear.

I'll stick with the tried and true PLF, thank you.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[skybytch 273]

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I don't know when it should be taught as I haven't given it that much thought.
It's worth a discussion, IMO.

I absolutely agree. As long as the discussion doesn't include not teaching PLF's.

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Anyone that believes that a "proper PLF" is the best answer to botched forward landings ought to jump off a truck and see how it works out for them.

I've used forward PLF's and walked away from quite a few could have been nasty landings. I'm not saying that a slide technique wouldn't have worked as well or better, just that PLF's do work, even with some forward speed.

It's a valuable survival skill, and I'm glad my FJC instructor made me roll around in the pea gravel, forward, to the left, and to the right, until I was doing it correctly.

[Sletzer 3]

Alright Andy, the next time we're all out there and the weather isn't jumpable, make us all get outside and PLF around The Farm. Everyone will hate you, but be better for it.
Good discussion guys.

I will be kissing hands and shaking babies all afternoon. Thanks for all your support! *bows*

SCS #8251

[BIGUN 1,342]

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She rolled onto her shoulder which in turn put her feet into the air, she bounced on to her head and consequently put out a hand. And broke her wrist.

Head bouncing.
Rolling on the shoulder.
Throwing out the wrist.
IMO, doesn't sound too much like a "by the book" PLF.

EDIT:
Oops... shoulda read the whole thread... you're down there with a few former or current Airbornes... bet them a beer they can't do any kind of PLF off that moving pickup truck.

The issue here is not whether PLF's will work or not.... the issue is - do Instructors give PLFs the attention they deserve in the FJC. I'm always intrigued when visiting a DZ and see there's an enormous amount of time given to EP's, but a couple of cool rolls off a chair and we consider the PLF block of instruction good [insert golf clap here]. Several on here have heard my old rant... "Shouldn't we spend more time teaching PLF's than EP's since one will probably use PLF's more than EP's in these days and times?"

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[flydog 0]

DSE, I disagree. I missed a rear riser after a 270 to downwind. A friend watched the carnage. He claims to this day a textbook PLF is why I got a high dollar helicopter ride rather than being bagged up and taken away in an ambulance without the lights. Im sure my forward speed was up as it was breezy that day for downwinders. Also I was jumping a VX 104 at 2.5/1.
I think PLFs are good for any botched landing. Just sliding in isn't botched if its controlled. I havent stood up but a couple of landings in the last 500. Slid in controlled. But a PLF did save me when things got out of control a few years back.

[rmarshall234 14]

>>the principles of how to protect your body in a fall remain the same and apply to parachuting or something like gymnastics or martial arts.

Not true and here is why:

Unlike every other fall students have experienced in their life, in this case they will be "suspended" and therefore restrained. Dissipating your energy must come from the feet "upward" in a coordinated fashion while the canopy slowly releases its hold on you. The "natural" tendency is to lead with your shoulder and that is simply not possible in a PLF. This distinction needs to be made very clear to students when teaching them PLFs.

[2shay 0]

being an airborne vet and having a few wipe outs plf's will save you big time. They are necessary and have seen many students mess themselves up because they did not do a proper plf.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[popsjumper 2]

Slide-ins are a great technique too...let's not forget.
There seems to be an angle of approach that would differentiate the best technique for landing those "gotchyas".

I have no idea what that angle would be but for demo purposes let's say 45 degrees.

If AoA > 45 ~ slide
If AoA < 45 ~ PLF

Whaddayathink?

For students....I am very hesitant to try to teach them alternative techniques when the PLF accomplishes so very much.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[brucet7 0]

While no expert, I wish I had done a PLF instead of a face plant on my first night jump. Would have saved a concusion and trip in the ambulance.

POPS #10623; SOS #1672

[JohnMitchell 16]

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I've got video of a young woman doing a "by the book" PLF while landing downwind. She rolled onto her shoulder which in turn put her feet into the air, she bounced on to her head and consequently put out a hand. And broke her wrist.
Had she slid in on her thigh rolling to the side she'd have been much better off

High forward speed, low rate of descent = slide

Low forward speed, high rate of descent = PLF

High forward speed, high rate of descent = you're screwed

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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>>the principles of how to protect your body in a fall remain the same and apply to parachuting or something like gymnastics or martial arts.

Not true and here is why:

Unlike every other fall students have experienced in their life, in this case they will be "suspended" and therefore restrained. Dissipating your energy must come from the feet "upward" in a coordinated fashion while the canopy slowly releases its hold on you. The "natural" tendency is to lead with your shoulder and that is simply not possible in a PLF. This distinction needs to be made very clear to students when teaching them PLFs.

This is exactly the type of explanation that confuses students.

[CDRINF 1]

No, the "natural tendency" is to try to try to absorb all of the shock through your legs and break an ankle, or slam down on a knee, or put your hands out to catch yourself, and in so doing snap a wrist, or bust an elbow. These tendencies have to be trained out by teaching the principles of falling safely.

My point is, it is not specific technique but principles that one needs to remember, which you in fact state: energy must be dissipated in a coordinted fashion. Tuck your extremities in, roll on the fleshy parts of the body, not the boney parts, and let the momentum of the fall carry you rather than fighting it.

CDR

[popsjumper 2]

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My point is, it is not specific technique but principles that one needs to remember,

I would disagree with that. One needs to know proper technique...THAT'S what is going to save your butt regardless of the principles behind it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[CDRINF 1]

Well, you are free to disagree, but go back to the original question:

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How relevant is a PLF considering the descent rate & glide ratio of ram-air canopies as opposed to the rounds when a PLF was vital? Why do we teach how to land straight down when we don't land straight down anymore? With the glide ratio under ram-air canopies the opportunity to do a PLF is nil. Not a clean, good PLF, anyway. Momentum and trajectory alone will negate the chance to even try. So, why?

My point, and the point of the original question, is that the accepted PLF technique may not fit every situation, as we often land with more forward momentum now than in days past, but the principles of how to protect your body in a fall do not change. So, you can either try to teach a different technique for each type of landing and hope the student executes the correct one under pressure, or you can drill in the principles that will fit all situations using the PLF as a teaching vehicle.

If you look at the larger training methodology, one philosphy is a wrote memorization of a set of steps, perhaps without true understanding. The other is understanding of the why that if done correctly produces a thinking student who will be able to make decisions, not just react.

CDR

[fasted3 0]

I agree with this, and think is where a lot of folks are coming from. Whatever you call it, if it works it's a good thing. Keeping the limbs in and landing on the soft parts can save your ass. I will take the truck challange with the tumble over the slide any time.
On a side note, when I was a kid I remember doing a lot of crazy stuff on bikes, skates, skate boards. Those crashes are the training for this too.
I'm not knocking the slide, in it's place, but for me when the chips are down, I'll go for the PLF.
I will agree with the OP that nice standups are far better and should be strongly encouraged.

But what do I know?

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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Well, you are free to disagree, but go back to the original question:

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How relevant is a PLF considering the descent rate & glide ratio of ram-air canopies as opposed to the rounds when a PLF was vital? Why do we teach how to land straight down when we don't land straight down anymore? With the glide ratio under ram-air canopies the opportunity to do a PLF is nil. Not a clean, good PLF, anyway. Momentum and trajectory alone will negate the chance to even try. So, why?

My point, and the point of the original question, is that the accepted PLF technique may not fit every situation, as we often land with more forward momentum now than in days past, but the principles of how to protect your body in a fall do not change. So, you can either try to teach a different technique for each type of landing and hope the student executes the correct one under pressure, or you can drill in the principles that will fit all situations using the PLF as a teaching vehicle.

If you look at the larger training methodology, one philosphy is a wrote memorization of a set of steps, perhaps without true understanding. The other is understanding of the why that if done correctly produces a thinking student who will be able to make decisions, not just react.

CDR

There won't be any time for thinking. PLF should be automatic. That's the point.

[mnskydiver688 0]

It is all about a life long motto... Go with the flow and just ROLL with it... Alright back to the serious discussions.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[zoobrothertom 5]

I jump the same way. Feet and knees together. Every landing is approached as a PLF until my flare shows me I can relax and stand it up or run it out.

This approach has saved my butt more times than I can remember!

____________________________________
I'm back in the USA!!

[2shay 0]

honestly slide ins are about all I do now on those landings that are a little too fast or on the gotchyas. I think slide ins are awesome, but I think that students sometimes do not flare quite right, and that could lead to a sore tail bone or broken for some maybe. Good stuff though pops.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[NWFlyer 2]

I have a friend who is in the hospital today with two compressed vertebrae in his lower back, a broken rib and some very bruised heels after a brain fart landing error ... a PLF might have saved him some or all of those injuries.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke