Perris minor incident May 9 - pattern error

[jsreznor 0]

Quote

FYI

The BigWays were instructed:

"If you are landing in the state of California, you will land in the same direction as the first man down (usually Dan BC) if you do not, you may be sat down AND banned from ALL future events".

I don't know DanBC, but do what the 1st guy does isn't really the smartest thing. I watched the first 15 jumpers bust their asses on downwind landings because no one wanted to change the approach. The only two people to stand up their landings were the fun jumper who waited in brakes and the student who pulled high.

I say, check the wind sock(s), and if you have to change the plan, hang in brakes until things clear up.

[jsaxton 0]

We can count on Dan to do the right thing, at least _most_ of the time Once you have enough experience to do BigWays you'll probably get to know him.

BTW: Chasing the windsock is a horrible idea.

Quote

Quote

FYI

The BigWays were instructed:

"If you are landing in the state of California, you will land in the same direction as the first man down (usually Dan BC) if you do not, you may be sat down AND banned from ALL future events".

I don't know DanBC, but do what the 1st guy does isn't really the smartest thing. I watched the first 15 jumpers bust their asses on downwind landings because no one wanted to change the approach. The only two people to stand up their landings were the fun jumper who waited in brakes and the student who pulled high.

I say, check the wind sock(s), and if you have to change the plan, hang in brakes until things clear up.

[billvon 2,991]

> I watched the first 15 jumpers bust their asses on downwind
>landings because no one wanted to change the approach.

The solution there - learn to land downwind. If you can't, upsize until you have a canopy you can safely land.

Changing the landing direction every 15 seconds to follow the windsock is a recipe for disaster.

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

do what the 1st guy does isn't really the smartest thing. I watched the first 15 jumpers bust their asses on downwind landings because no one wanted to change the approach.

It IS the smart thing to do if the policy to follow the first man down.
You don't agree, you land away from the landing area.

Quote

check the wind sock(s)

Yes, good idea. But low winds can be unpredictable and at Perris the wind is unpredictable all the time.
Would you do a 180 at 500 ft to land into the wind?
Hence the comment about not chasing windsocks.

Quote

The only two people to stand up their landings were the fun jumper who waited in brakes and the student who pulled high.

I demo'd a PD160 reserve which had rather short brakelines (stall point just with toggles just below my ribcase). At altitude I had carefully determined the stallpoint and figured I could stand up the landing.

My right thigh muscles ached for three days, but I stood up the landing = it was a good landing, right?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[jsreznor 0]

Quote

Quote

My right thigh muscles ached for three days, but I stood up the landing = it was a good landing, right?

You walked away? I'll go with good landing.
In the end, it's your own ass that you have to cover.

[jsaxton 0]

In the context of the landing pattern the best way to "cover your own ass" is to FOLLOW THE PLAN.
If the plan is to follow the first man down, that's what you do.

Quote

In the end, it's your own ass that you have to cover.

[jsreznor 0]

Quote

In the context of the landing pattern the best way to "cover your own ass" is to FOLLOW THE PLAN.
If the plan is to follow the first man down, that's what you do.

Quote

In the end, it's your own ass that you have to cover.

Meh. I'll hang in brakes while you hurt yourself.

[wmw999 2,447]

Couple of things. With your experience level, you're better off landing with smaller numbers of people, and outside of the main landing area. Fewer things to focus on, which is good.

If you have enough jumps and experience with skydiving distraction to jump with 100 other people on the same load, you'd better be able to land in less than optimal conditions. Which would include downwind in slight winds.

Safety trumps comfort in skydiving. And with 100 other people landing, using the same direction to land as everyone else is a safety measure. Although I do think that if one is more than a mile away it's more for the discipline than safety .

If you don't like the way the earth is coming up to meet you under canopy you should probably PLF anyway. That's another safety measure, and a damn good one.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[tetra316 0]

Quote

Quote

In the context of the landing pattern the best way to "cover your own ass" is to FOLLOW THE PLAN.
If the plan is to follow the first man down, that's what you do.

Quote

In the end, it's your own ass that you have to cover.

Meh. I'll hang in brakes while you hurt yourself.

You would seriously ignore the stated landing direction and land opposite just because you may not like it??? I dearly hope I NEVER end up on a load with you!

Sometimes you have to suck it up cupcake and acknowledge safety trumps comfort. If you cannot land in a slight downwind then you need to upsize until you can.

[jacketsdb23 49]

Victor...seriously talk with an instructor at the Ranch. I don't know what your landing rules are there...but if a landing direction is stated...you need to follow it. simple.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Meh. I'll hang in brakes while you hurt yourself.

This assumes that there is no load exiting after the load you jumped from.

Hang in brakes long enough and you'll end up landing with the pocket rockets from the next load.
Lots of NGs with tunnel vision (not looking around, not following the pattern) that can barely figure out how to steer clear of obstacles.

I don't know if the Ranch has multiple AC flying, but if you ever visit Perris, DeLand, Eloy, Spaceland, Chicago etc, you'll be putting yourself and others in a heap of trouble with your tunnel vision attitude.

see Take Back the Sky

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[billvon 2,991]

>I'll hang in brakes while you hurt yourself.

A better solution is to learn to land your canopy so you don't hurt yourself. A canopy control course can do wonders to help prevent landing injuries.

[jsaxton 0]

Fine, but you'd get cut from any BigWay for that attitude. Talk to me again when you have a few hundred jumps

Quote

Quote

In the context of the landing pattern the best way to "cover your own ass" is to FOLLOW THE PLAN.
If the plan is to follow the first man down, that's what you do.

Quote

In the end, it's your own ass that you have to cover.

Meh. I'll hang in brakes while you hurt yourself.

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

Quote

I don't know DanBC, but do what the 1st guy does isn't really the smartest thing.

One of Dan Brodsky-Chenfeld's skydiving profiles can be found HERE.

[BikerBabe 0]

hehe, i remember seeing a list once called "You know you're a skydiver when..."

and one of the items on the list was "you know you're a skydiver when you think DanBC, Jack Jeffries, and BJ Worth are 'famous'."

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

I don't know what your landing rules are there

Rules? Ha! My first time there, I asked what the landing pattern was. "Don't hit anybody" was the official answer. They actually do a pretty good job of picking a landing direction before takeoff much of the time, but there's no rule to follow it. And there's no telling what direction the previous or next loads chose, so it gets a bit hectic [aka scary].

Dave

[billvon 2,991]

>"you know you're a skydiver when you think DanBC, Jack Jeffries, and BJ
>Worth are 'famous'."

After Harry O'Connor died, someone put up a big picture of him in the DZ doing a tandem with someone. I thought it was cool that they gave him his own big picture on the wall there. It wasn't for a few months that I noticed that the person he was doing the tandem with was Drew Barrymore.

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

Quote

Quote

My right thigh muscles ached for three days, but I stood up the landing = it was a good landing, right?

You walked away? I'll go with good landing.

Not entirely true. An instructor would call it at best a "you walked away so it was a good landing. However......"
it wasn't the BEST decision.
I should have PLF'd. You don't want to PLF, you'll get injured eventually. It's that simple.

Quote

In the end, it's your own ass that you have to cover.

I don't understand this statement, could you please explain?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[chriswelker 0]

A canopy control course can do wonders to help prevent landing injuries.

Common sense works also.

You can't fix stupid!

Chris

[AlRedler 0]

When we had the briefing for the 100 way camp we were told that the reason some people from the big way camp the week before were not there was because they had violated the landing rules the first week.

As they were not safe with 50 people in the air, they would not be safe with 100.

Post:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To

Were those people named and/or sat down? It might be time for some actual rather than threatened consequences. At least if there's a repeat offender. There are always realtime situations, but dang. It's not like they say you can't whine about having to land off and in a less-than-perfect direction.

Wendy P.

[jakee 1,490]

Quote

I don't know DanBC, but do what the 1st guy does isn't really the smartest thing. I watched the first 15 jumpers bust their asses on downwind landings because no one wanted to change the approach.

But notice that what you didn't see was anyone getting seriously broken from a canopy collision or low avoidance turn because someone decided to land against the flow of traffic. That's more than worth taking a downwinder for.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[tetra316 0]

Quote

Quote

I don't know DanBC, but do what the 1st guy does isn't really the smartest thing. I watched the first 15 jumpers bust their asses on downwind landings because no one wanted to change the approach.

But notice that what you didn't see was anyone getting seriously broken from a canopy collision or low avoidance turn because someone decided to land against the flow of traffic. That's more than worth taking a downwinder for.

Yes those 15 jumpers may have gotten a bit dirty, but they all landed safely as far as I know. Because they know how to land downwind. If they hadn't followed the set landing directly they may have been cut for safety violations. The landing rules were made perfectly clear prior to the first jump. If you don't like them, don't jump.

Also keep in mind that at some big way events like this, they will have someone out in the landing area holding the wind direction arrow in place prior to the first landing. So there really was no follow the first person down at the 100 ways but rather follow the arrow that someone was setting in place. Even though there might have been some downwinders the organizers (almost always the first ones down) followed the arrow rather than go against it and set the stage for confusion for the rest of us. I would take a slight downwinder anyday over the confusion of multiple landing directions. Again if you cannot land downwind, upsize until you can. Simple.

[danornan 79]

"The BigWays were instructed:

"If you are landing in the state of California, you will land in the same direction as the first man down (usually Dan BC) if you do not, you may be sat down AND banned from ALL future events". "

I was out there for the 100-way invitational and the above quote is accurate. It was stated numerous times to adnausium!

I personally had a problem landing downwind, but in the words of several organizers, "Suck it up cupcake!"

The two above quotes kept people alive. Unfortunately, I don't know what was told to the fun jumpers.

Holding in breaks until you like what is below, might kill someone! The winds were changing constantly and it was impossible to set the landing direction for the first jumper and allow the last to land the way they may have preferred.

If you jump at Perris, be prepared for changing winds and downwind landings. It would be had to land far enough away to always land any other way. If you are unpredictable, you might kill someone.

Again, I did not like landing downwind, but the only safe way to land is by following the first one down.

Dano

[mdrejhon 8]

I'm late in this fray, but my two cents...

I was assigned outer slots in the 100-ways this time around (including last out of a trail plane!) -- and wearing my slowfall jumpsuit that allows me to be middle fallrate as on a near-last dock at the end of an outer whacker -- I can track really good with such an unfair advantage, in addition to being first breakoff wave, last to open -- so I was often pretty far away under canopy. I usually had the luxury of choosing where to land at the very far periphery of the dropzone -- almost half a mile away from the grass... (I've broken off from base and middle breakoffs in the previous camp, but for the 100-ways, I was always the outer for this particular camp)

That, from a distance, I did get very scared of what I saw in the airspace above the grass sometimes. It's all important to start learning how to fly crowded airspace for the upcoming 500 way world record. At some other occasions where my position in the sky was appropriate, I merged myself into the dozens of canopies aiming at the grass, and it's a very intense experience keeping eyes on caonpies flying nearby. It can be part of the excitement of the event if the rules are followed, but I am very well aware that a significant percentage of skydiving deaths happen as low-altitude airspace collisions.

That said, I think a few minor procedural changes for the next Perris Big Way event is probably in order -- in the name of safety, given what is already posted on dropzone.com ...

Bigways are full of danger. But I still think it's safer than competition swooping. (Not that I don't like to swoop recreationally, or might expand into it someday -- though that's not my skydiving career path right now)

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Again, I did not like landing downwind, but the only safe way to land is by following the first one down.

I couldn't disagree more.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239