Here's a point of view to discuss.

[rgoper 0]

Muenkel:

you are absolutely right in what your saying. perhaps i was premature with saying we're all disscussing the same topic over, and over. i realize now, that i was perhaps wrong. i would venture to say, that "maybe" someone's mind(s) could be changed through disscussion.

thanks for bringing this to my attention. my apologies to any offended by my remarks.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[fasterfaller 0]

I just want to say if you are coming to this country to work , LEARN ENGLISH , it's only fair to the people that live here . I have never had a problem with people coming here to work as long as they do not lower the pay scale and learn and speak the spoken language of the land . Most of the skydivers that come here from other countries speak english so why cant the people that want to work here learn it too .

[Scoby 0]

I thought America's national identity IS the mixture of cultures born of waves of immigration. The "love it or leave it" attitude that certain groups have is antithetical to the American way. Generally, they crow about "freedom," while getting upset if anyone expresses that freedom. "In God We Trust" was not always our national motto. Successful cultures assimilate, unsuccessful ones isolate. Turning inward will only hasten the decline of American hegemony.

[billvon 2,991]

>I just want to say if you are coming to this country to work , LEARN
>ENGLISH , it's only fair to the people that live here .

Tolerance, man, tolerance! What do you care if a Mexican-born guy, who lives in a US-Mexican household, walks to work at a Mexican restaraunt, and hangs out in a Mexican bar, speaks spanish or english? What does it matter?

If he wants all government forms printed in two languages, or wants new street signs, then I'd agree - he gets no help if he doesn't want to learn the language. But why does everyone have to speak the same language that you do, as long as they are happy with it?

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

As previously mentioned much higher in this thread: when travelling or living abroad (which I have done extensively in my 20 years in the service), one MUST try and assimilate into society if he or she hopes to succeed. Can you make it on pantomime and gutteral grunts? Maybe, but why not just do the right thing and learn the damn language. I learned Spanish well enough to get paid to do so in less than six months. Russian and most other Eastern European immigrants to the united states take great pains to learn proper, even un-accented English in as short a time as possible. The people who do so in this manner have a MUCH easier time securing gainful employment. True, there will always be low-level less-than-minimum wage jobs available to those who choose to cop out, but why would one do so? I have seen this lackadaisic attitude all over the world (actually, primarily in Central and South America and the Carribean basin), but that has nothing to do with the language barrier.

Anyway, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with immigration, but DO think that we should set up a mandatory Head Start language like the ones american servicemembers are required to attend upon arrival to foreign duty stations. When I arrived in Germany in 1982, I spent two weeks in such a program. I left there with at least the ability to get directions, order food, and read and understand signs. Unfortunately, in the rural regions of the United States I am constantly running into crowds of primarily Spanish speaking workers who absolutely cannot communicate with a store clerk without an interpreter; unfortunate.

A bit of levity in this quite-interesting, but fairly dry thread:

"Mexican Americans go to night shool, take Spanish and get a B"

-Cheech Marin

[fasterfaller 0]

I agree with everything the skymonkey said . My brother runs a large landscape company and recently set up a english class for the 100 plus men that work for him free of charge . All they did was bitch and moan about it and they were even going to get paid while they learn . He finally got fed up with them and is in the process of replacing them with ones that do want to learn . If you are going to live somewhere learn to speak the language . If I moved to another country I would learn how to speak the spoken language , it's only fair to the people that live there . Why should they accommodate me because I am too fucking lazy to learn ?

[billvon 2,991]

>Maybe, but why not just do the right thing and learn the damn
> language.

Learning the language for the place you live in is a good idea in general. But it doesn't bother me that someone would choose to live or work in the US and not learn the language - again, as long as they expect no special considerations for their laziness.

I've been in (worked in, vacationed in, bike toured in) something like 15 foreign countries, with 9 different toungues, and can only speak two languages. It's never been much of a problem because people in foreign countries seem pretty tolerant of people who don't speak their language (or at best speak it badly.) Surely we can show the same courtesy here.

Conversely, I have worked with people here in the US who do not speak english. We get by, sometimes with interpreters, sometimes because we speak a specialized language (engineering mathematics) that is pretty universal. If we can communicate, and they do a good job, then things work out well.

> I learned Spanish well enough to get paid to do so in less than six
>months. Russian and most other Eastern European immigrants to
> the united states take great pains to learn proper, even un-
>accented English in as short a time as possible. The people who do
> so in this manner have a MUCH easier time securing gainful
> employment.

I agree; it's a very good idea.

>True, there will always be low-level less-than-minimum wage jobs >available to those who choose to cop out, but why would one do so?

No idea. But that's up to them. Laziness may be part of their pursuit of happiness; who knows?

>Unfortunately, in the rural regions of the United States I am
> constantly running into crowds of primarily Spanish speaking workers
> who absolutely cannot communicate with a store clerk without an
> interpreter; unfortunate.

True, that is unfortunate to them. Perhaps they will learn english to help them buy food, or perhaps they will be lazy and not learn it. Honestly, it doesn't bother me either way.

[Phil 0]

well, well, any american indians in this forum? if so what is your opinion about immigrants adapting...?

how high can you fly with broken wings ...
life's a journey not a destination

[Remster 30]

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opinion about immigrants adapting

I think the immigrants adapted them pretty well!

Remster

[fred 0]

Just a quick point, but to become a US citizen, you do have to pass an English literacy and speaking test. Maybe they do know how to speak english, but just don't want to talk to the likes of you.

[macey 0]

Yes, a country you took from someone else!

[fonz 0]

At the risk of being called an asshole, let's give it a try...

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complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.

This I don't understand. If you don't like American patriotism, then what are you doing in America?

I for one despise French patriotism, so I avoid France like the plague and certainly won't emigrate there.

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I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America.

As a matter of fact, a similar discussion is going on in Holland. Certain political parties wish to set criteria which immigrants have to meet before they can be admitted. Basically, the requirements are the ability to read/write/speak our language and have a basic understanding of Dutch history and culture.

Don't get me wrong, if you wish to live in Chinatown and speak Chinese all day, go right ahead. But I think you should realize that you are in America and that most, if not all, formal conversations (e.g. with banks, store keepers, cops etc.) are in English (or American, in fact) so although I really don't give a damn what language you speak at home, you should at least be able to speak the language of whatever country you live in.

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"In God We Trust" is our national motto.

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If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home

This I find interesting because I intend to move to America. I am an atheist. This doesn't mean gods offend me, they're just not my thing. I personally disagree strongly with any religion whatsoever but I do think that anyone should be free to believe whatever they want to believe.

Anyway, does this mean I cannot live in America? I hope not.

Quote

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.

This I totally agree with. Migrating into another country is one thing, but expecting your new country to change according to your wishes and desires is another thing. That I think you just cannot do.

And five hundred entirely naked women dropped out of the sky on parachutes.
-- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

[Muenkel 0]

You know, I was in England this past November and I did all I could to speak their language. It was hard, but I got by.

_________________________________________
Chris

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

Yes, a country you took from someone else!

I've done alot of things in my life I wish I hadn't, but this one I cannot take responsibility for as I was born in the 1960's.

_________________________________________
Chris

[jtval 0]

I have been visiting Korea for almost a year now.
I dont expect the Koreans to learn "american."
and although americans have been here for 50 years it is easier for the koreans to understand me then it is for me to understand them.
I dont expect immigrants to forget the first language but I expect them to TRY to speak our language. just as i am trying to do learn hungul.



how else are you expected to tell some one to fuck off if they dont understand the words that are comin out of you mouth

My photos

My Videos

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

Muenkel:

you are absolutely right in what your saying. perhaps i was premature with saying we're all disscussing the same topic over, and over. i realize now, that i was perhaps wrong. i would venture to say, that "maybe" someone's mind(s) could be changed through disscussion.

thanks for bringing this to my attention. my apologies to any offended by my remarks.



Richard

Richard,

I admire this post. Humility is a great virtue and it shows a person's character.

I too have had to apologize in the past to some I offended (you included). Many were very grascious in their response to me. One person did not have the character or perhaps the guts to acknowledge it. I feel sorry for those kind of people.

Your apology is accepted...at least by me.

_________________________________________
Chris

[cloud9 0]

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Yes, a country you took from someone else!

this is pretty humorous. Actually almost every land in the world that is occupied today has changed hands many times. So it was all taken away from one group or another. As for judging yesterday with todays standards well it really doesn't apply. I mean after all we could easily take a whole bunch more land from just about any country we wanted to. But of course that would be uncivilized by todays standards so we don't do it.

[algboy 0]

Oh well--it's the 4th. I'm gonna just raise a toast to the American flag. Wanna join me??

“Keep your elbow up!"

[Phil 0]

Quote

this is pretty humorous. Actually almost every land in the world that is occupied today has changed hands many times

If you are refering to the new world (read American continent - read Alaska to Argentina) you are probably right.
Over here in my part of the world (Switzerland) we had wars around us and all the other BS but I do not recall, that we (the Swiss) took somebody's land away, killed most of them and but them in reservations. (We just took their money)

Quote

I mean after all we could easily take a whole bunch more land from just about any country we wanted to. But of course that would be uncivilized by todays standards so we don't do it.

You're right there - instead let's use some agent, like: orange? ... sorry couldn't resist no VC no VC
.
.
.

how high can you fly with broken wings ...
life's a journey not a destination

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

"In God We Trust" is our national motto.
This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this
motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded
this nation, and this is clearly documented.

Is the USA a Christian nation?

Take a look at Article 11 of the US Treaty with Tripoli, approved unanimously by the US Senate 6/7/1797 and signed by President John Adams. I think there were enough of the founding fathers still around Congress and the White House in 1797 that this can be considered representative of what they thought on the subject.






Here it is:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall
ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

[StevePhelps 0]

Quote

Yes, a country you took from someone else!

Name me one place in the world that is not true, in some degree, of the people who live there now

[TheAnvil 0]

That article 11 seems to mirror the First Ammendment. Interesting, as I'd never read that before.

While the USA is not a Christian Nation, the fact that it was founded on Christian PRINCIPLES is undeniable.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

The thing about language is far deeper than someone coming to work here. Two main factors are 1) national identity and 2) services.

You can make a strong argument - a la Mike Savage - that language, borders, and culture define a nation. All three vary to some extent over time. Culture and language can vary extensively over a short time period as we all know, and borders can change as well though obviously not quite as often.

The problem with foreigners not learning the language of the nation to which they have emigrated comes when they settle there. They don't tend to come alone and tend to congregate/live together and form a sub-culture. This further reduces their need to learn the language, and creates massive problems. Both government and private services for these people are a necessity - health care ( I AM NOT FOR SOCIALIZED MEDICINE IN ANY FORM!!! I SIMPLY REFER TO THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE TO COMMUNICATE WITH MEDICAL PERSONNEL!), police services, banking, elementary/high schools, infrastructure in general and etc.

Their inability to speak the language of the land forces the government and private business to adapt to their needs, which costs us $$. They chose to come here, they chose to settle here, they chose to start a family here (in some cases). Burdening American taxpayers due to the choices made by foreign nationals is unacceptable.

In the long term, having subcultures within a nation-state that speak different languages is a destabilizing factor socially. Language is a common bond between people - a subtle yet important one that helps to form the basis for a national identity. Having different languages within a nation is bad ju-ju.

Should we halt immigration? Absolutely not. Should people who stay here be expected to learn the language? Absolutely. The english language and American culture will be changed/enriched over time by their doing so.

Beers to all,

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 2,991]

The thread lives!

>The problem with foreigners not learning the language of the nation
> to which they have emigrated comes when they settle there. They
> don't tend to come alone and tend to congregate/live together and
> form a sub-culture. This further reduces their need to learn the
> language, and creates massive problems.

Like what? There are Chinatowns, Old Towns, Little Italies etc in most cities. I've worked in/eaten in/hung out in those communities in Boston, NYC and San Diego, and they're no different than any other sort of community - some good, some bad. I think it's sorta cool that we live in a country where people can come together and create the sort of community they want.

>Burdening American taxpayers due to the choices made by foreign
>nationals is unacceptable.

The burden to taxpayers from people who smoke or drink heavily is a thousand times greater than the burden to taxpayers from people who don't speak english. Heck, the burden to taxpayers from people who ride motorcycles, drive cars, even skydive is pretty significant (who's paying the air traffic controller your pilot is talking to?) Why is all that acceptable, but the miniscule burden of having interpreters on call unacceptable?

>In the long term, having subcultures within a nation-state that speak
>different languages is a destabilizing factor socially.

I don't believe that even one little bit. It makes americans who can't speak any other languages uncomfortable but that's about it.

> Should people who stay here be expected to learn the language?
> Absolutely.

I think they _should_ learn to speak english, but if they don't want to, hey, it's their life. If they want to live in a spanish-speaking community all their life, have limited job opportunities, have problems talking to cops etc then that's their choice.

>The english language and American culture will be
>changed/enriched over time by their doing so.

The american culture will be most enriched by accepting people of other cultures - whether they speak your preferred language or not. Excluding a Picasso or a Dali because they would rather paint than take language classes makes us poorer as a society.

[TheAnvil 0]

What problems, eh? Have you even LOOKED at the costs of having interpreters on call for hospitals and police precincts? I have friends who are doctors, nurses, and police officers. The problems are there, they are real, and they are expensive in both $$ and time wasted by police officers when they could be doing other things. That's just for medical and police services. Others as well? You're talking a huge chunk o' change.

I'd challenge your 'thousand times greater' stat. Taking into account the MILLIONS of $$ taxpayers pick up in medical costs ALONE for illegals who speak no English makes me seriously doubt your assertion. The hospital in Brownsville, TX alone does that monthly I believe.

ATCs have other duties than clearing skydivers to jump. They're worth the $$ they make deconflicting air traffic and keeping the skies safe for commercial/military use. You have no tenable point there.

Miniscule cost of interpreters? Think again. Salary + benefits + insurance=$$$$$$$$. No way around it. If a company chooses to pay for classes for some of its employees, that's still $$ expended that could be used elsewhere.

NON-U.S. CITIZENS HAVE NO RIGHT TO BURDEN U.S. TAXPAYERS NEEDLESSLY. Wanna work? FINE! Bring your family? FINE. Get special treatment at taxpayer expense? HELL NO! Come here illegally? HELL NO!

You have to think long term with this language thing. These folks come here and do not leave as a general rule of thumb. When Johnny, Jr. grows up speaking only Spanish and doesn't grasp English all that well, then he himself has a kid who doesn't grasp English all that well, how do you think they identify themselves? As Americans? Nope. They're citizens, being born here, but do NOT identify themselves as Americans. Not a good thing at all.

Language, borders, and culture DO make a nation. Maintaining their coherency makes nations strong. Even a quick look at the Quebec/Canada situation lends some insight into that. A look at the former USSR, Yugoslavia, and even all the way back to ancient Rome and her fall and you'll find the lack of common language to be a destabilizer for nation-states. How do you thing Georgian, Azerbeijani, Kazakh, Croatian, and Lithuanian nationalism all survived? By word of mouth? No - by language. Language is the same reason the BRD and DDR were able to once again become a united Germany so easily. It IS a binding factor among people.

Americans do accept people of other cultures and do so openly. In return for that acceptance, the least they could do is learn the language. Picasso or Dali's works would be admired by folks all over the world regardless of where they were painted. Their exclusion would have little effect on their legacy as artists.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!