Group Members and Doing Tandems

[loudtom 5]

Does a dz have to be a group member nowadays to do tandems with the new rating regs?
I know they didn't have too before, but don't they have to be now with USPA handling all the paperwork?
Just wondering...
lt

tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

[chriswelker 0]

No and No.



Chris

[diablopilot 2]

No, they don't have to be a group member.

The most recent change to the USPA regs stated that is an INDIVIDUAL is a USPA member, and they do tandems they must be a USPA tandem instructor.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Does a dz have to be a group member nowadays to do tandems with the new rating regs?

no

Quote

I know they didn't have too before, but don't they have to be now with USPA handling all the paperwork?

no. What do you mean by 'USPA handling all the paperwork'?

Right now, the rules say that a TI, who is a USPA member, must have a USPA TI rating if they perform training jumps.
If TIs, USPA member or not, do 'carnival' rides they do not need a USPA TI rating.
(These two statements apply equally to GM DZs and non-GM DZs.)

If a TI has a mfg rating, is not a USPA member and is at a non-GM DZ, they must follow the FARs and the mfg rules.

A question (new reg) that is being kicked around is to
require TIs at GM DZs to have a USPA tandem rating.
IIRC, it is part of the new Training Center BS.

There are four sets of rules: FARs, mfg, USPA individual and USPA GM.
Each mfg has slightly different rules.

|          GM             |        Non-GM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

USPA Member         |  FARs, mfg, BSRs, GM    |  FARs, mfg, BSRs    |

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

non- USPA Member    |  FARs, mfg, BSRs, GM    |  FARs, mfg          |

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In theory a non USPA member jumping at a GM DZ is not supposed to happen, but reality shows otherwise.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[loudtom 5]

---no. What do you mean by 'USPA handling all the paperwork'?---
I don't delve into every detail, but, if you have a manufacturers rating, to do tandems at a USPA member dz you have to have a USPA rating also. Is that correct?
If you have don't have a USPA rating you can't do tandems at a USPA gm dz even with a manufacturers rating? Is that right?
IF the dz is not a group member, you can get a manufacturers rating and do tandems there without a USPA rating. Is that correct?
Why would a DZ not want to have its people be USPA rated instructors or be USPA members? In the current climate is it not prudent to use a National organization and have that affiliation?
Lastly, I thought the manufacturers were having USPA act as something (I am not sure what) to handle paperwork after the original ratings were earned.
Thanks for your help in understanding.
tom

tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

[riggerrob 643]

There are two sides to this debate.

One manufacturer would prefer that all tandem instructors were trained and maintained by USPA. Many years ago, their tandem program director grumbled to me that the company was spending $100,000 per year on his salary and expenses and they would prefer to fob the whole program off on USPA. Let's face it, manufacturing is one business while training and maintaining instructors is a vastly different business. Why have two organizations with overlapping responsibilities?
Heck! The last item I phoned them about earning an examiner rating, the factory told me: "Phone (USPA President) Jay Stokes."

Another manufacturer is on the other end of the scale, believing that if they keep a tight rein on tandem instructors, they can reduce the accident rate. So they devote a lot of time and energy to controlling tandem instructors using their equipment.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

I don't delve into every detail, but, if you have a manufacturers rating, to do tandems at a USPA member dz you have to have a USPA rating also. Is that correct?

Yes, IF you do 'training' jumps.
No, IF you do non-training, aka carnival jumps.

All your questions are related to this BSR.

Quote

2-1: Basic Safety Requirements
E. Student skydivers
4. Advancement criteria
c. Tandem training jumps [E]
(1) Any USPA member conducting a tandem jump must hold a current USPA Tandem Instructor rating and a manufacturer’s type rating.

This applies to GMs and individual members.

Quote

If you have don't have a USPA rating you can't do tandems at a USPA gm dz even with a manufacturers rating? Is that right?

Yes, IF you do 'training' jumps.
No, IF you do non-training, aka carnival jumps.

Quote

IF the dz is not a group member, you can get a manufacturers rating and do tandems there without a USPA rating. Is that correct?

If the TI is a USPA member then:
No, IF you do 'training' jumps.
Yes, IF you do non-training, aka carnival jumps.

If the TI is NOT a USPA member then:
Yes, IF you do 'training' jumps.
Yes, IF you do non-training, aka carnival jumps.

Quote

Why would a DZ not want to have its people be USPA rated instructors or be USPA members?

For the 'USPA rated [tandem] instructors' part:
TIs that originally got their mfg rating before the USPA TI rating was around and have done hundreds or thousands of tandem jumps might just think USPA is out of line.

But to completely understand the issues, you have to look at the historical progression of tandem. Originally, it was operated under a waiver from the FAA. USPA had no hand in it then.

The mfg TI certification courses included student training, especially on canopy control.

Then the USPA ISP came along.

Then the tandem was incorporated into the FARs.

Then USPA wanted to make sure that TIs were trained on the official ISP gospel.
That's when USPA started to demand that any tandem training done, MUST be done by a USPA TI. (IMHO, this was all driven by USPA HQ and some DZOs on the BOD. It was not driven by the mfgs, other TIs or regular members.)

There was a period of time where a mfg TI could get a USPA TI rating with relative ease and minimal expense. Most mfg TIs took advantage of this, but not all. That grace period was extended many times, as can be found in the BOD minutes for waivers.

Today, this is becoming more of an issue because of the new 'Training Center' designation of GM DZs. (This also is driven by HQ and DZOs on the BOD.) This is a not so subtle way to indirectly label a DZ as a 'tandem mill'.

The reality is that most first time tandems do not want to become skydivers. They would never do a jump on their own. This gave sustenance to 'tandem mills'. The 'holier-than-thou' group says that training should be done on all first tandem jumps.

One of the unintended consequences of tandem is the market for tandem mills. There are tons of people that would have never jumped if they had to do it on their own. They have no desire to do so, even after their first jump.

Some people do not want to accept this reality and want to penalize those that take advantage of this.

The DZs or TIs that got rated 20 years ago and are running a tandem mill, do not care about the USPA 'training' stuff. They go where the market takes them.

Quote

In the current climate is it not prudent to use a National organization and have that affiliation?

Yes.

Quote

Lastly, I thought the manufacturers were having USPA act as something (I am not sure what) to handle paperwork after the original ratings were earned.

UPT has always wanted USPA to take over.
SE has always wanted to keep training in house.
I don't know what JS wants.

USPA cannot even figure out how to put a type rating on the membership card, so I do not have that much faith that USPA would do a proper job with the paperwork.

I like having the mfgs in the loop. They are much quicker to respond to issues.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

I like having the mfgs in the loop. They...

.. can standardise international regulations and guidelines.

Quote

Why would a DZ not want to have its people be USPA rated instructors or be USPA members?

Why would my DZ want to have its people be USPA rated instructors or be USPA members?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[loudtom 5]

Why would my DZ want to have its people be USPA rated instructors or be USPA members?

=============================
Not being from the USA I can understand your statement. What I can't understand is why you have nothing to do but reply to my post...

tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

[loudtom 5]

Thanks Jan,
Now what to do when you know a dz that is doing tandems at a non gm dz with USPA rated instructors.
Aff too probably. The RD knows about it but as usual has not stepped up and done anything about it. I tried at one time to have him do his job and he didn't. Sooooo....
Going to a National Director will only put it back in the rd's hands...The S&TA should be pulled but it isn't...because he said "what would they do without a s&ta"...how about not worrying about it and follow the rules.
In a sport where we police ourselves, those that jump at a place like this only give permission for it to continue...
lt

tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Thanks Jan,
Now what to do when you know a dz that is doing tandems at a non gm dz with USPA rated instructors.

Nothing. They are following the rules (as far as ratings go).

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[DanG 1]

Where in the SIM or IRM do you see a differentiation between a training tandem and a "carnival ride"? Where is the definition of the two distinct types of jumps? I don't see it anywhere.

- Dan G

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

Why would my DZ want to have its people be USPA rated instructors or be USPA members?

=============================
Not being from the USA I can understand your statement. What I can't understand is why you have nothing to do but reply to my post...

Think about it... if the manufacturers didn't set the minimal safte requirements but instead the USPA standards were the only norm in the US - how would you get the national skydiving organisations of other countries to comply? We'd get a bunch of different things that would be considered the 'minimum safety requirements'. What that could mean in legal terms I probably do not have to explain.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[PhreeZone 20]

To further complicate it here is FAR 105.45 - § 105.45 Use of tandem parachute systems.:

Quote

(2) The person acting as parachutist in command:

(i) Has briefed the passenger parachutist before boarding the aircraft. The briefing must include the procedures to be used in case of an emergency with the aircraft or after exiting the aircraft, while preparing to exit and exiting the aircraft, freefall, operating the parachute after freefall, landing approach, and landing.

(ii) Uses the harness position prescribed by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute equipment.

This is not optional and anyone that does not complete all steps of this is in violation of the FAR's and the User agreement they signed when they got their rating. This makes every tandem a training one in some way now.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[DanG 1]

Yeah, that was in line with my point. All tandem students (or passengers, or whatever) receive some kind of training, even if it is only training on how to be a tandem passenger. I don't believe there is such a thing as a "carnival ride" tandem either in the regs/rules or the real world.

- Dan G

[jcrouch 0]

There seems to be some incorrect statements in this thread regarding tandem ratings. The USPA Basic Safety Requirements state the following:
c. Tandem training jumps [E]

(1) Any USPA member conducting a tandem jump must hold a current USPA Tandem Instructor rating and a manufacturer’s type rating.


It does not matter where the USPA member is jumping. Group Member drop zone, non-GM drop zone, United States, Europe, Asia, etc. The BSR is clear that any USPA member who is conducting any tandem jump must hold a USPA tandem Instructor rating and be approved by the manufacturer of the type of gear they are using. This applies to all tandem jumps.
USPA met with all of the tandem manufacturers in June, 2007 to standardize the way ratings were handled between each manufacturer and USPA. Because USPA has the only system in place to track rating renewals, it was agreed by all present at the meeting that it was in the best interest of everyone involved to make sure initial tandem instructor rating paperwork was received by both USPA and the manufacturer, and that USPA would keep track of rating renewals from that point forward.

Regards,
Jim Crouch
Director of Safety and Training
U.S. Parachute Association

[riggerpaul 1]

I've been wondering about some of these details, especially in the light of the notion of having one's membership end though expiration or revocation.

I've seen some people say that non-members can be Tandem Masters at non-GM dropzones.

But I also see that FAR 105.43(a)(1)(iii) states that the Parachutist in Command. "Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA...".

What's a "master parachute license"? USPA documents only seem to speak of A, B, C, D, now, with no titles like Expert or Master. Is a "master parachute license" a USPA D license?

What's "an organization recognized by the FAA". This is only the USPA, right?

If you are not a current member, you cannot hold a D license, right?

Does all this come down to meaning that a non-member may not be a Tandem Master in the USA?

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

There seems to be some incorrect statements in this thread regarding tandem ratings. The USPA Basic Safety Requirements state the following:
c. Tandem training jumps [E]

(1) Any USPA member conducting a tandem jump must hold a current USPA Tandem Instructor rating and a manufacturer’s type rating.


It does not matter where the USPA member is jumping. Group Member drop zone, non-GM drop zone, United States, Europe, Asia, etc. The BSR is clear that any USPA member who is conducting any tandem jump must hold a USPA tandem Instructor rating and be approved by the manufacturer of the type of gear they are using. This applies to all tandem jumps done by USPA members or at a USPA GM DZ.

This is exactly what I said earlier.

The issue that exists is when a non-USPA member does tandem jumps at a non-GM DZ.
For example, a case is when someone with a recognized FAI D license from some other nation and a mfg tandem rating, does a jump at a non-GM DZ in the US. In this case, the jumps are completely in accordance with the FARs and the mfg rules.
This is also what I said earlier. (eg You do not need a USPA TI rating if you are not a USPA member and are jumping at a non
GM DZ. You do, of course, need the mfg rating.) If these jumps are to 'count' towards a USPA A-license, then the TI would need to have a USPA TI rating. If the jump is essentially a 'carnival ride' then there is no violation of any rule (FARs, mfg, BSRs or GM).

Quote

USPA met with all of the tandem manufacturers in June, 2007 to standardize the way ratings were handled between each manufacturer and USPA.

Quote

Because USPA has the only system in place to track rating renewals

This is incorrect. Renewals are tracked for all TIs by SE. Renewals for foreign TIs at UPT are tracked. The reason the foreign renewals are tracked is because some NACs have mfg renewal requirements - that were implemented when tandem was done under the waiver system. The foreign NACs have not changed their rules.

Quote

, it was agreed by all present at the meeting that it was in the best interest of everyone involved to make sure initial tandem instructor rating paperwork was received by both USPA and the manufacturer, and that USPA would keep track of rating renewals from that point forward.

They might have agreed to that, but I know SE still tracks things independently of USPA.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

I've been wondering about some of these details, especially in the light of the notion of having one's membership end though expiration or revocation.

I've seen some people say that non-members can be Tandem Masters at non-GM dropzones.

But I also see that FAR 105.43(a)(1)(iii) states that the Parachutist in Command. "Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA...".

What's a "master parachute license"? USPA documents only seem to speak of A, B, C, D, now, with no titles like Expert or Master. Is a "master parachute license" a USPA D license?

It's a D license from any FAI recognized NAC.

Quote

What's "an organization recognized by the FAA". This is only the USPA, right?

No. Any foreign country with a NAC recognized by the FAI would also be considered "an organization recognized by the FAA".

Quote

If you are not a current member, you cannot hold a D license, right?

For USPA, your license is only valid when you are a member.

Quote

Does all this come down to meaning that a non-member may not be a Tandem Master in the USA?

I hope not. That would have severe anti-trust implications.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

What's a "master parachute license"? USPA documents only seem to speak of A, B, C, D, now, with no titles like Expert or Master. Is a "master parachute license" a USPA D license?

It's a D license from any FAI recognized NAC.

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

Quote

I've been wondering about some of these details, especially in the light of the notion of having one's membership end though expiration or revocation.

I've seen some people say that non-members can be Tandem Masters at non-GM dropzones.

But I also see that FAR 105.43(a)(1)(iii) states that the Parachutist in Command. "Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA...".

What's a "master parachute license"? USPA documents only seem to speak of A, B, C, D, now, with no titles like Expert or Master. Is a "master parachute license" a USPA D license?

It's a D license from any FAI recognized NAC.

Quote

What's "an organization recognized by the FAA". This is only the USPA, right?

No. Any foreign country with a NAC recognized by the FAI would also be considered "an organization recognized by the FAA".

Quote

If you are not a current member, you cannot hold a D license, right?

For USPA, your license is only valid when you are a member.

Quote

Does all this come down to meaning that a non-member may not be a Tandem Master in the USA?

I hope not. That would have severe anti-trust implications.

.

Thanks very much for pointing out about non-US, FAI recognized, licenses. I'd totally lost the international aspect.

How would someone get such a license if he was a US citizen and US resident? Do you have to leave the country? Do you have to establish a residency outside the USA?

If it is difficult or impossible to do (get a non-USPA Master license) from inside the USA, isn't there still some onerous anti-trust implications for USPA with the FAR's requiring a recognized Master license?

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Quote

Thanks Jan,
Now what to do when you know a dz that is doing tandems at a non gm dz with USPA rated instructors.

Nothing. They are following the rules (as far as ratings go).

.

Jan, I disagree.

Quote

2-1: Basic Safety Requirements
E. Student skydivers
4. Advancement criteria
c. Tandem training jumps [E]
(1) Any USPA member conducting a tandem jump must hold a current USPA Tandem Instructor rating and a manufacturer’s type rating.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DanG 1]

On that point she is right. The regs don't say that tandem jumps can only occur at GM dropzones. They just say that USPA members conducting tandems must have a USPA TI rating.

- Dan G

[matthewcline 0]

Thanks Jan,
Now what to do when you know a dz that is doing tandems at a non gm dz with USPA rated instructors.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nothing. They are following the rules (as far as ratings go).


Maybe what is missing from this previous post is that the USPA Rated Instructor is not a USPA Tandem Instructor, but a Mfgr Rated Instructor and maybe USPA Coach, AFF, SL or IAD Instructor?

If they are a USPA Member they are to be USPA Rated, regardless of location, by the BSR. The only way around this would be for the individual to not be a member of USPA at all, at a non-GM DZ doing Tandems. Although I am really not sure how one could do that now since the Mfgr's want a "D" (USA) or "Master" License from the NAC and the Coach or higher type rating for experience.

I see no issue with the theory that if your not a current member you license is not current. It works this way in several other organizations, one for example WERA (Western Eastern Roadracing Association, motorcycles) if you do not renew, you don't have a license and can't race and your number gets reassigned.

We all know we are to stay current and follow the BSR's when we take on the role of Instructor. We have it read to us and we read it and we aknowledge it in the Instructor Courses, it is a question on our written tests, it is on our annual renewal forms and if we accept appointments to S&TA it is in our Handbook.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Thanks Jan,
Now what to do when you know a dz that is doing tandems at a non gm dz with USPA rated instructors.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nothing. They are following the rules (as far as ratings go).


Maybe what is missing from this previous post is that the USPA Rated Instructor is not a USPA Tandem Instructor, but a Mfgr Rated Instructor and maybe USPA Coach, AFF, SL or IAD Instructor?

Yeah maybe that's the confusion.

If you rewrite Tom's question as:
Now what to do when you know a dz that is doing tandems at a non gm dz with USPA TANDEM rated instructors.
The answer is:
Nothing. They are following the rules (as far as ratings go).

Quote

If they are a USPA Member they are to be USPA Rated, regardless of location, by the BSR. The only way around this would be for the individual to not be a member of USPA at all, at a non-GM DZ doing Tandems. Although I am really not sure how one could do that now since the Mfgr's want a "D" (USA) or "Master" License from the NAC and the Coach or higher type rating for experience.

Further clarification is found here:

Quote

2-1.E Student Skydivers
7. Instruction of foreign students [E]
a. Foreign non-resident instructional rating holders appropriately and currently rated by their national aero club may train students from that nation in the U.S., provided the instruction is conducted in accordance with the USPA Basic Safety Requirements.

So actually, foreign rated TIs can do tandems at a GM DZ in the US without having a USPA TI rating, provided that they are not a USPA members. Gee - the foreigners, without a USPA membership, have more rights than USPA members do in the US???

Look at what the BSRs and GM program say for foreign GM DZs -

Here is a quote from the winter 2009 USPA Minutes:

Quote

The next item discussed was foreign Group Member drop zones. Director of Safety and Training
Jim Crouch expressed concern regarding the ability, and in some cases, willingness, of foreignbased
Group Member drop zones to comply with the Group Member Pledge, particularly as
related to use of USPA rating holders and compliance with FAA rules. After some discussion,
the committee decided to not take action at this time and asked the director to make an additional
effort to emphasize the requirements to foreign group member. The committee will reconsider
this issue at the summer 2009 meeting.

USPA is trying for domination of the global skydiving market.
USPA is trying to get other nations to abide by US regulations stated in the FARs.
Heck, even the FAA does not require that.

It is a very strange situation for foreign GM DZs.
They are required to make all licensed customers & instructors have a USPA membership.
Apparently that is not happening.
Non-USPA members, tandem rated by their home country, can come to the US and do tandem jumps at more places than a USPA member with a mfg tandem rating can.

Quote

I see no issue with the theory that if your not a current member you license is not current.

It is not a theory.

Quote

3-1.B. General conditions for licenses
1. USPA licenses are valid only while the holder is a current regular USPA member; there is no other renewal requirement.

And one more quote from the SIM

Quote

Tandem jumping
A method of skydiving, typically used for training student skydivers or introducing newcomers to the sport, where one jumper shares a tandem parachute system with another.

From common interpretation, the phrase 'training student skydivers' means teaching TLOs from the ISP and the phrase 'introducing newcomers to the sport' means carnival ride. The 'teaching' that goes into proper exit positions, EPs etc fall into the instruction stated in FAR 105.45.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker