Dangers of an Expired Cypress

[theonlyski 8]

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And then you see other units with zero usage, still in the factory packaging. A typical low use unit might be offered for sale with a 4 year check done, still sealed, and reaching 12 years old.

I thought the 12 years started from date of install, but I could be way off.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Andy9o8 2]

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I have heard of old ww2 torpedos and mines still killing people, they are allot older than 20 years.

Many explosives don't just become less reliable as they degrade with age, they also become less stable, more sensitive and more prone to incidental or spontaneous combustion. In real-world application, the issue is the potential to increase the risk of a premature/unintended AAD firing.

Most broad-application deadlines are, to a slight degree, arbitrary. The fact that some Cypreses might still be ok after 14 years doesn't mean that all 14 year old Cypreses can be "quietly" relied upon by the user to be ok.

[skybytch 273]

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I thought the 12 years started from date of install, but I could be way off.

You're way off. The 12 years starts from the date of manufacture.

[riggerpaul 1]

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I thought the 12 years started from date of install, but I could be way off.

FYI

In a CYPRES (not CYPRES 2, where we never see the batteries anyway), the batteries can be stored after they are manufactured (up to 3 years, IIRC), and then the 2 year/500 jump life limit on the batteries starts when they are installed.

As another poster said, the life limit on the AAD itself starts from the date of manufacture.

[theonlyski 8]

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I thought the 12 years started from date of install, but I could be way off.

FYI

In a CYPRES (not CYPRES 2, where we never see the batteries anyway), the batteries can be stored after they are manufactured (up to 3 years, IIRC), and then the 2 year/500 jump life limit on the batteries starts when they are installed.

As another poster said, the life limit on the AAD itself starts from the date of manufacture.

Ahh, that must have been what I was remembering.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[billvon 2,990]

>I know for a fact that many many electrical components are 30-40-50-60
>years old and function fine, even though they have solder joints.

Of course. Reliability just goes down. (True for all AAD's, not just Cypreses.)

>If the self test of the unit passes, the chance of the solder joints
>breaking between the self test and firing of the unit in an emergency are
>slim.

BIST (built in self test) will not catch all solder joint failures.

>I have heard of old ww2 torpedos and mines still killing people, they are
>allot older than 20 years.

That is a good example of why you should NOT rely on long term stability of explosives (or gas generation compounds.)

[tbrown 26]

As a "Cypres1" (original model) owner who just got my Cypres back from its 8 year service, I would indeed be interested to know if Airtech would ever consider extending the lifespan beyond 12 years, based on solid data. I think the last of the original models would be due for retirement around 2014. But since that would be 23 years from the introduction of the first Cypres, they must have tons of data and documentation on how the things have been holding up and performing. 12 years' worth of production, with 4 yr and 8yr services, numerous field reports of thousands of saves, research on returned & retired u nits,and of course problem reports that have occurred over the years. It would seem there should be enough hard data for them to make a decision about whether or not the lifespan could be extended beyond the original 12 years. This would of course include a mandatory 12 year service, as well as keeping the 2 yr batteries on schedule.

But as their main competitor is advertising a 20 year lifespan, with no servicing unless or until a problem arises (scary thought), a reasoned extension might be worth considering. Sort of like what PD does with reserves that have been packed more than 40 times or used more than 25 times.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Texas-Girl 0]

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Guys,
What are the dangers of jumping with an expired cypress? :)

Thanks!

Pardon my ignorance as I am a newbie and hope to do my AFF cert this summer. Why does this piece of gear expire?

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Lots of reasons. The pyro charge in the cutter degrades. The capacitors degrade. The circuit boards and their circuits degrade. NONE of these faults would show up during the self-test.

The manufacturer says not to use it after 12 years.

There isn't a "Mission Impossible" self destruct at 12 years and a day, but considering what it does. I will follow those reccommendations.



Search "Cypres after expiration" for a lot more discussion.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[kelpdiver 2]

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Also, though a unit checks ok, is a heavily used unit more likely to function incorrectly during any single skydive, notwithstanding that it is less than 12 years old? We do know that a Cypres unit, when on, has a continuously active controlling function. If a fault is detected, the unit shuts down.
If this function operates correctly, no foul, except if that was the skydive that an AAD would probably have prevented the fatality.
If it doesn't shut down, is there an increased risk of an out of parameters activation?

Personally, I would hate to have an 11 year old Cypres not function as expected, especially on a student or tandem rig, if I could have prevented this possibility by replacing the unit ahead of its 'life' limit.

Basically, it comes down to life TIME limits versus life CYCLE limits. And / or a combination of both.

Not sure the data is collectable to support/deny this thesis - but taking a shot:

A lot of people buy 8 and 10yo Cypres units for their first rig to lower that outlay from 1200-1300 to a few hundred. And many of these come from gear shops, could be from rigs that did see a lot of use. This class is perhaps the most likely to need the AAD due to loss of altitude awareness.

If these are true, and the 12 year life was cutting a bit too close to the true expected failure point, we should see incidents of failure.

[LongWayToFall 0]

I guess as you pointed out, it all boils down to probabilities. I'll bet though that the probability of an AAD not working even after 40 years is going to be .001%. Circuit boards have been around a long time, they have the technology down pretty well. Same with explosives. It would be interesting to read some military specs regarding lifespans

[billvon 2,990]

>I'll bet though that the probability of an AAD not working even after 40 years
>is going to be .001%.

Well, I'd go with a higher number than that based on a quick MTBF analysis, but I agree that it would be very, very low. I guess one difference between the various manufacturers is where they draw that line (if they draw it at all, that is.)

[erdnarob 1]

When I was publishing posts during the AAD's debate I mentioned on this forum that I have contacted ammunition specialists associated with firing ranges. They told me that a lot of people were still firing WWII ammunitions succesfully (60 years ago). That put your fifteen years in the subjective type of statements. On the other hand I still have my TEXAS INSTRUMENTS electronic calculator (with red display diodes) still working. I bought that calculator at Boston in 1975 which was 34 years ago. This is not what I think, this is the reality.
Who said that the manufacturer's check had to be compulsory. Anybody equiped with any kind AAD can when in doubt send back his device to the manufacturer for check up and maintenance just like any skydiver does it for his own rig and see his rigger. For sure some manufacturer found a good way to get more money. Imagine container/harness manufacturers asking for a compulsory and expensive maintenance by themselves every 4 years. That being said, a rig is a must to save your life while an AAD is just a back up device.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[billvon 2,990]

>On the other hand I still have my TEXAS INSTRUMENTS electronic
>calculator (with red display diodes) still working.

I have a box of HC-series Motorola microcontrollers that are around 20 years old. 90% of them still work.

>Imagine container/harness manufacturers asking for a compulsory and
>expensive maintenance by themselves every 4 years.

Actually it's required every 180 days - and some manufacturers (the better ones IMO) have life limits for their equipment.

>That being said, a rig is a must to save your life while an AAD is just a
>back up device.

Unfortunately, it is also a device that can kill you and others if it malfunctions - so it's a bit different than a backup device like a dytter.

[chuckakers 425]

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Guys,
What are the dangers of jumping with an expired cypress? :)

Thanks!

Good luck finding a rigger that will allow it in his packjob.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Rover 11]

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Guys,
What are the dangers of jumping with an expired cypress? :)

Thanks!

Good luck finding a rigger that will allow it in his packjob.

Unless you are the rigger, and it's your own gear.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[flydog 0]

Bill, I just got back on and saw your questions. Yes the batteries were new and in date. As far as the terminal on this drop I recall it to be in the high 90's. 98 MPH sticks in my mind. Also as someone else asked about location. It was next to our data gathering equipment that gave us the speed in the high 90's.

[chuckakers 425]

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Guys,
What are the dangers of jumping with an expired cypress? :)

Thanks!

Good luck finding a rigger that will allow it in his packjob.

Unless you are the rigger, and it's your own gear.

Illegally, yes.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[billeisele 130]

probably none if it is not turned on except that you would not have an in-date, legal, turned on Cypres ready to work if you needed it

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[livendive 8]

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Guys,
What are the dangers of jumping with an expired cypress? :)

Thanks!

Good luck finding a rigger that will allow it in his packjob.

Unless you are the rigger, and it's your own gear.

Which is where I suspect one would find the majority of in-use, expired Cyprii (in rigger's rigs).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[faulknerwn 38]

We had a bunch of expired Cypreses on my dz, and I figured I could sell em on dropzone.com ultra-cheap to be used as trade-ins. A Russian jumper actually bought all of them. Way I figure it - they probably are too poor to have AADs at all otherwise, so I figure an expired Cypres is probably better than no Cypres (or at least no worse....) I don't think there are any regulations in Russia about them.

[Andy9o8 2]

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I figure an expired Cypres is probably better than no Cypres (or at least no worse....)

If the risk is a late-fire or no-fire, you're probably right. If the risk is a premature or spontaneous fire, well, who knows...

[diablopilot 2]

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As a "Cypres1" (original model) owner who just got my Cypres back from its 8 year service, I would indeed be interested to know if Airtech would ever consider extending the lifespan beyond 12 years, based on solid data. I think the last of the original models would be due for retirement around 2014. But since that would be 23 years from the introduction of the first Cypres, they must have tons of data and documentation on how the things have been holding up and performing. 12 years' worth of production, with 4 yr and 8yr services, numerous field reports of thousands of saves, research on returned & retired u nits,and of course problem reports that have occurred over the years. It would seem there should be enough hard data for them to make a decision about whether or not the lifespan could be extended beyond the original 12 years. This would of course include a mandatory 12 year service, as well as keeping the 2 yr batteries on schedule.

There is and they did.

The original life span was always intended to be 10 years. As the first units got to that point they evaluated and decided 12 was the best number to balance reliability and customer satisfaction.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[NWPoul 1]

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We had a bunch of expired Cypreses on my dz, and I figured I could sell em on dropzone.com ultra-cheap to be used as trade-ins. A Russian jumper actually bought all of them.

Bad for your karma:)

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Way I figure it - they probably are too poor to have AADs at all otherwise,

In Russia, poor skydivers tend to use a mechanical ADD (for ~50$)

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so I figure an expired Cypres is probably better than no Cypres (or at least no worse....)

Silly logic IMHO

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I don't think there are any regulations in Russia about them.

Shure it is... and more strong than say in US;)

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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When I was publishing posts during the AAD's debate I mentioned on this forum that I have contacted ammunition specialists associated with firing ranges. They told me that a lot of people were still firing WWII ammunitions succesfully (60 years ago). That put your fifteen years in the subjective type of statements. On the other hand I still have my TEXAS INSTRUMENTS electronic calculator (with red display diodes) still working. I bought that calculator at Boston in 1975 which was 34 years ago. This is not what I think, this is the reality

The switching power supply in my 12 year old home theater preamp refuses to start when first turned on because of a capacitor which has gone bad.

I've replaced a handful of semi-conductors in my pinball machine between the 10 and 16 year mark although all but the first six years of its life were spent in my basement artist's loft, or office for just 1100 hours of use.

The WiFi board in my laptop didn't last 5 years.

The sun roof on my 11 year old car sometimes spontaneously opens after closing part way. One of the air bag circuits went bad in a lot less time. It only has 90,000 miles on it and I often go a week without driving.

My second hand Fluke series 70 has worked great since I got it in 1996, although I only use it when I have an electronics project or one of my other pieces of electronics has failed.

When not broken I use my skydiving rigs nearly every week (for over a decade). Given the poor longevity I've had with other frequently used electronics I don't feel too bad about the Cypres life time.

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Who said that the manufacturer's check had to be compulsory.

I think it's a great idea. I don't want to be standing on some one's shoulders in a totem pole when their aged AAD fires prematurely and compulsory periodic checks before it can legally be used make that less likely.

The other side of this is that with compulsory checks the manufacturer gets to sample more units and be more likely to catch less common problems before they manifest with potentially fatal results.

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For sure some manufacturer found a good way to get more money.

Service plans which create a recurring revenue stream are great for business, although that's not their only justification.