Just got to try a spectre 170...

[DSE 5]

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Many people have had injuries under similar and larger canopies. I keep that in mind every time I jump. The ground doesn't care how many jumps you have. I may end up injuring myself I may not - that is the nature of skydiving - if I'm not willing to challenge myself what's the point of doing it?

Challenging yourself is great. That's what this sport is all about. Convincing yourself that you've already completed all of Billvon's points of downsizing at 30-odd jumps isn't meeting a challenge, it's fantasy, IMO.

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If it's close enough in flight characteristics to the 210 and the rig fits then I may consider purchasing it over the winter and spending 100 or so jumps on that. If not then I'll see what else there is out there and try a few before committing to buy something.

-Michael

100 jumps may not be enough for being ready to downsize. Were that the case, most of us would have progressed from 200-ish canopies to sub 100-ish canopies in a couple or three years. I guess I should be on a 120 now..
Also consider the ramifications of going out of this season as a very inexperienced jumper on a 1.0 wingloading, and wanting to come back next season on a 1.2 wingloading. Maybe not a good plan?

Your instructor's input should carry a lot of weight. However, if your instructor tells you one thing, and the industry charts, the "e-structors" and the manufacturers are saying another, *and* you don't have the exceptional background that someone like Kallend has, then maybe you should consider talking to more than one instructor. Kinda like getting second opinions, because occasionally, friendships can cause people to overlook behaviors.

[popsjumper 2]

I'm with you DSE...all the way. Conservative is good.

God, how can we help the kids minimize the potential for getting hurt when we have bozos (ooops, Sorry, Bozo) idiots telling them shit like:

1. I did it so you probably could too!
2. I had tons of experience in a different sport so it was OK for me!
3. As long as you realize the risk, it's OK. Go for it!
4. Screw the guidelines. You're special!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[hackish 8]

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a middle ground between the 210 and the 170, hmmm...... wait for it, wait for it......... It comes in a 190, Eureka!

Sorry to be so sarcastic, long day...

Haha, hence my desire to try the sabre2 190. I'm told that the spectre and sabre are completely different in terms of eliptical and the fact one is a 7 and one is a 9 cell. There is also a spectre 210 and I'm sure there must be someone around who has tried the sabre 210, spectre 170 and everything in between who can answer my query. Maybe the spectre 210 is still too advanced. I don't want to spend the coin and find that out.

-Michael

[Fast 0]

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I'm with you DSE...all the way. Conservative is good.

God, how can we help the kids minimize the potential for getting hurt when we have bozos (ooops, Sorry, Bozo) idiots telling them shit like:

1. I did it so you probably could too!
2. I had tons of experience in a different sport so it was OK for me!
3. As long as you realize the risk, it's OK. Go for it!
4. Screw the guidelines. You're special!

Hey, thanks for the personal attack. I was waiting for it to come, knew it was only a matter of time. No where in my post did I say it was OK to do it. But I also didn't say it wasn't. Is that the problem you had with it? I don't know this guy any different from who I know you claim to be.

I was trying to put a post out there that wasn't attacking him and would at least make him think a little bit more about what exactly it means. So to call me an idiot for trying to get another person to think more about what they are doing is a bit misguided in my opinion. I know a guy at my dz who came on here and was like, "I'm downsizing to this" and everyone basically said, "you will be dead in a year" and didn't give shit for constructive thinking or anything along that lines. Well, he didn't die, but at some point he fucked up an ankle and then finally realized that people might have been right, at least for him.

I have gone back and forth with a jumper at my dz in the past about his excessive downsizing and he really didn't give a shit what I had to say cause I took the "you're going to get hurt or die" approach. People who downsize like that, don't listen to attacks. So I have given up bothering to do it.

Hackish seems to have a reasonable sense of what he was doing coming on here. He had to know he was going to take shit for this thread, I almost wonder if it was on purpose. None the less, the point I was trying to make with my post was that he should know better than to take too much risk. He should also know better than to ask about downsizing advice on the internet. He should know that his instructors at his dz that know his skills are the ones that can give adequate advice. Finally, he should know that if he doesn't know all the things I just said, then he ought to not be downsizing anyways.


Thats my $.10

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[DSE 5]

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a middle ground between the 210 and the 170, hmmm...... wait for it, wait for it......... It comes in a 190, Eureka!

Sorry to be so sarcastic, long day...

Haha, hence my desire to try the sabre2 190. I'm told that the spectre and sabre are completely different in terms of eliptical and the fact one is a 7 and one is a 9 cell. There is also a spectre 210 and I'm sure there must be someone around who has tried the sabre 210, spectre 170 and everything in between who can answer my query. Maybe the spectre 210 is still too advanced. I don't want to spend the coin and find that out.

-Michael

you don't have to "spend the coin" other than paying shipping. Have your DZO or DZM contact PD on your behalf, and they'll send a demo for you to try. I don't have a PD dealer in my area, so have demo'd several canopies via mail. It goes through your DZ so that PD knows you're qualified to be jumping the canopy. Their demo program is terrific, Kim will answer any questions you have.

[hackish 8]

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Hackish seems to have a reasonable sense of what he was doing coming on here. He had to know he was going to take shit for this thread, I almost wonder if it was on purpose. None the less, the point I was trying to make with my post was that he should know better than to take too much risk. He should also know better than to ask about downsizing advice on the internet. He should know that his instructors at his dz that know his skills are the ones that can give adequate advice. Finally, he should know that if he doesn't know all the things I just said, then he ought to not be downsizing anyways.

The post was as I stated to get opinions of what canopy would have the characteristics I described. I knew that there would be attacks by the same people but if you filter that out and read some of the PMs I got I did manage to get some really good advice. Thanks to those who sent the PMs. Obviously they don't want to anger anyone by not joining the "you're going to die" crew.

Sadly it's a lose lose situation. If you downsize and people tell you that you'll die and you don't you become lucky. If you do injure yourself then it becomes a big told-ya-so. Suppose I died tomorrow from a no-pull I'm sure it would go down in the records as another idiot who died from downsizing or whatever.

If I can find a canopy that flies as I like without the annoyances of the PD210 then I'll probably buy it. The reason I'm trying to work it out now is that I'd buy a complete rig with the canopy I want. Unlikely that I could afford anything new. Maybe that will be a spectre 210. Maybe it will be a sabre 2 190. People aren't complaining about the 210 I'm flying.

Since everyone got on the you're an idiot bandwagon I think they forgot that I'm trying to figure out what to get here. Yes I tried the 170 and I liked how it flew but it's just too fast for me. Unfortunately many have assumed because I tried one that's what I want to get.

-Michael

[kallend 2,027]

Every skydive you make involves a risk of injury or death. Some skydives are riskier than others.

Some people have a higher risk tolerance than others.

That's OK.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey Mike,



Just a bit of advice, from experience.

The more you reply and "attempt" to defend yourself, everyone on here will just find some way to twist/contort/flip what you say so they can keep ragging you. How much sh*t do you think I took for making my 32nd jump (and every one after that) on a Spectre 135? Everyone on here said the exact same thing...You're going to die, You're stupid, you're this you're that. I don't give a damn anymore and I don't try to defend myself. Like you stated above....it's a lose-lose battle. You say you'll be careful, they say bull sh*t, you say fine, I'll fly the 170, they get out bounce bingo cards. I'm not saying that I am not going to die or get hurt just like they said. I simply used my instructors advice and opinions, as well as some from DZ.com, to make a decision of "MY" own. I cleared the decisions wiht my instructors, and voila, Spectre 135. I accepted and accept the risk involved in doing what I did.

I say do this...DO NOT use DZ.com for canopy "size" advice. That's why you pay your instructors so damn well. They see you fly, they make the recommendations, you weigh the risk and accept whatever you're willing to. That's what I've done after realizing the above. DZ.com is a great place for information, not advice.

Notice my profile still says I'm on the Spectre 135 and my jump numbers are not in there anymore? You know what canopy I'm flying and roughly how many jumps I have. No one on here needs to know what I chose with my instructors. If your instructors say you should be on a 170, and you think that's a wise choice, and you feel comfortable jumping it, and you accept the risk....so be it. Skydiving involves inherent risk, if you accept it, you keep jumping, if you want more speed, you increase the risk for more pleasure. Simple as that. (In no way does this say, yeah, man, you'll be fine under the 170, I have seen you land maybe twice and I wasn't specifically watching you).

In all truthfulness though, the guys at your DZ seem to be fairly conservative with their canopy choices. I'm surprised that they would let you jump something agressive like that. I calculate a rough loading of about 1.22ish, and that's not absurd, but it is fairly high for your jump numbers. I loaded the 135 at 1:1, but granted that canopy is smaller and more responsive than a larger one at an equal loading.

So after all of that, I would "suggest" starting on a 190. Spectre, Sabre, Pilot, Safire etc.... All great beginner-intermediate canopies.

Chris



Shitstorm

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[hackish 8]

Well I saw you land the canopy you fly and it seemed to go well enough. You've seen me land the 210 within 10m or so of the target repeatedly. Last weekend I just about fell on my ass because I landed on the target - not a great idea it was slippery.

I borrowed Dan's canopy and believe it or not it was Mo who suggested it. Andre said he'd let me try his 190 Sabre2 and I know he wants to sell the entire rig. I'm just concerned about finding the right thing to buy as I'll no doubt be spending a lot of time on it. I already got signed off on my "A" for everything but the RW so that's my main concern before we close up for the year. Unfortunately there are no other rigs around and able to be borrowed unless MH rents any intermediate rigs.

-Michael

[dragon2 2]

My advice: I suggest you buy a rig with a 190 now, but buy a rig that will also be fine for a 170. Jump the hell out of the 190. Sell the 190 when you are ready for a 170, 190's sell fast anyway you won't lose much money on it.

ciel bleu,
Saskia