25 % increase fuel economy

[yardhippie 0]

Not to mention other agriculture based fuels.
Somone wanna take a risky investment? Sugar cane crops. the biofuels produced from them are easier to process and per the inputs cost less to produce.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[turtlespeed 220]

Quote

There is, however, a proven way to get a 40% increase in fuel economy:

Fill half your tank with gas, and half with E85, an ethanol based fuel. You'll use half the gasoline to go the same distance. Most cars will have no problem burning a 50/50 mixture; cars are already certified to burn a 10% mixture for pollution reduction.

The other nice thing? At least around here, E85 is 50 cents cheaper than gasoline.

I don't think I have even seen it sold here in Texas.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jumper03 0]

well, hang on before everyone jumps on the ethanol wagon -

found this article the other day very interesting.

http://www.springerlink.com/(qd1zl155tspday45me2gsyb0)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,6,6;journal,4,47;linkingpublicationresults,1:105547,1

I've got the pdf if anyone wants it - too large to post.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[turtlespeed 220]

That sux!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Rainbo 0]

Depending on where you are it is actually as or more expensive. Burniong E85 will get you LESS MPG so I am not sure how a 50/50 willimprove your mileage. Here in the midwest we would love to see more of this and refining plants to produce it. Imagine if we could quit paying government subsidies to farmers to leave thier land empty of crops and let them make money producing crops to convert to fuels that make us less oil dependant. They are developing a hydrogen/ethanol research facility here that will run on wind and solar power to do the conversions so those who say that it is not energy effificient are going to start losing that argument.

Rainbo
TheSpeedTriple - Speed is everything
"Blessed are those who can give without remembering, and take without forgetting."

[livendive 8]

Quote

If you have 10 gals. of water and drop in 2 oz. of acetone do you think you could tell the acetone was in there?

Absolutely. Then again I have one of these, with FID and micro-ECD detectors.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

Think of it this way.If you have 10 gals. of water and drop in 2 oz. of acetone do you think you could tell the acetone was in there?Do you think it would damage anything if you put it in the water?

The engine is supposed to work differently with it, right? It can tell. Do you think that the effect of the acetone is unnoticed by any other component of the vehicle, i.e. fuel lines, injectors, etc.?

Assuming there is no damage to the fuel lines, what will the combusted acetone do to the gaskets and seals? What will the acetone do the the catalytic converter? The O2 sensors? Etc.

I can eat a double cheeseburger with no observable effect. I can probably eat one a day for a week without any real negative consequence. But, after a month straight of eating them, I can expect discernable changes to occur.

I reckon acetone will do the same thing.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,991]

>Burniong E85 will get you LESS MPG so I am not sure how a
>50/50 willimprove your mileage.

For me, I go from about 45mpg to about 41mpg on a 50/50 mixture, so I lose about 9% on mileage. Since I'm only using half the gasoline, that's a net improvement of about 40%.

>well, hang on before everyone jumps on the ethanol wagon -

That was true 20-30 years ago. Modern production methods yield a 1.6 to 1.7 increase in available energy per the USDA.

[Thanatos340 1]

Quote

For me, I go from about 45mpg to about 41mpg on a 50/50 mixture, so I lose about 9% on mileage. Since I'm only using half the gasoline, that's a net improvement of about 40%.

Im not sure I follow you here..
Gas =$3.00 per gallon
You are saying E85 is $2.50 per gallon??

So your Mix costs about $2.75 per gallon??
But gets 9% less in MPG..

So what are you saving?? I must be missing something here.

[The111 1]

Quote

>Burniong E85 will get you LESS MPG so I am not sure how a
>50/50 willimprove your mileage.

For me, I go from about 45mpg to about 41mpg on a 50/50 mixture, so I lose about 9% on mileage. Since I'm only using half the gasoline, that's a net improvement of about 40%.

Are you getting ethanol for free?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[billvon 2,991]

>So what are you saving?

Right now it's about a wash. I am, however, using 40% less gasoline, which is my goal. As gas prices climb it will become cheaper to use the mixture.

[narcimund 0]

Quote

Modern production methods yield a 1.6 to 1.7 increase in available energy per the USDA.

If I read that right, it's similar to saying that 40% of the energy in ethanol is just swapped from petroleum used in the production.

But you said earlier:

Quote

Since I'm only using half the gasoline, that's a net improvement of about 40%.

If producing that ethanol cost a significant amout of petroleum (equivalent to 40% of its own output), then out of the ethanol half of your automobile energy, 40% effectively comes from petroleum anyway.

That cuts your advantage in half, no?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[yardhippie 0]

govt subsidies are not the only reasons fields lay fallow. more and more the cost of inputs to produce a crop of x barely equals the return. Even with the poor corn crop last year the per bushel price was extremly low.
More and more farmers are selling to developers. why keep a field that produces a few hundred per acre when you can sell it for thousands.
Plus the way of the small farmer is nearly over, they just cant afford the technology and consultants that large corperate farms must have.
You'd be amazed at what technologies have to offer farmers now.

Plants are being built more and more often, more of them in South america as their farmers convert from soy beans (and expensive crop) to sugar cane.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[Thanatos340 1]

Quote

Right now it's about a wash. I am, however, using 40% less gasoline, which is my goal. As gas prices climb it will become cheaper to use the mixture.

OK.... Now I see.

And if more people would follow suit, it would reduce the need for Gasoline, Further driving down the price.


How does using the Ethanol effect the lifespan of your vehicle?? I have always heard that alcohol will rapidly deteriorate an engine.

(Actually I have a good bit of experience running Alcohol Dragsters and Know first hand the havoc alcohol can cause an engine if it gets into the crank case.. Also in an alcohol burning dragster, the oil must be changed after every single pass and even then the engine will not last as long between rebuilds as a Gas Engine).

How often must you change your oil?

[jumper03 0]

Quote

>Burniong E85 will get you LESS MPG so I am not sure how a
>50/50 willimprove your mileage.

For me, I go from about 45mpg to about 41mpg on a 50/50 mixture, so I lose about 9% on mileage. Since I'm only using half the gasoline, that's a net improvement of about 40%.

>well, hang on before everyone jumps on the ethanol wagon -

That was true 20-30 years ago. Modern production methods yield a 1.6 to 1.7 increase in available energy per the USDA.

that article was based on USDA data and done in 2005. They actually refute the USDA numbers.

I'm no biochemist so I'm not in a position to argue the paper but it seems convincing to me.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[Rainbo 0]

Actually I think you and I are kind of saying the same thing. If there were more demand for the crop then the price of those crops would go up. If they went up enough then more fields would be planted and the farmers would make more money. I am by no means an economics major but just the fact that we become less dependant on oil and more dependant on renewable sources of energy seems to be a win win.
Part of the old arguments about needing oil to fuel the process of converting corn,sawgrass,soy beans, or whatever into ethanol based fuels do not play anymore if we use wind and solar to power the plants that make ethanol which is starting to happen. Hell how about we don't even go the ethanol route but use diesel engines running on vegetable oils. We have the outs but just haven't gone the direction we need to because oil was always so cheap, not so these days...

Rainbo
TheSpeedTriple - Speed is everything
"Blessed are those who can give without remembering, and take without forgetting."

[dbattman 0]

What car are you running Bill?

I wonder if my 2000 Nissan Altima will handle a 50% mix.

[billvon 2,991]

>How does using the Ethanol effect the lifespan of your vehicle?? I
>have always heard that alcohol will rapidly deteriorate an engine.

I dunno. An 05 Prius was run on E85 (not a mix; straight E85 which is at least 85% ethanol) for about a year with no problems, so I figure a 50/50 mix is even less 'stressful.' The car is already designed for E10, so I'm assuming that E50 isn't going to break anything. I guess we will see.

>How often must you change your oil?

I change it every 3000 miles anyway, so nothing new there. Keep in mind that the Prius engine doesn't run as often as a regular cars so the oil doesn't get old quite as fast.

[squirrel 0]

I have been told that a little acetone will also help an aging car pass the more strickter emissions test. Since I am one of those stubborn people who refused to define oneself by driving a newer car, I drive a beater which is getting harder to pass emissions. Might just give it a try. Just bought a 68 GMC, no more smog control for me! I will never by another emission controlled vehicle again...old school for me. Course, I dont really commute, at all.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[leapdog 0]

Quote

Nice article.
But why is this not common knowledge? Who is this guy that wrote the article?
He even states in his article that acetone eats rubber and plastic. So why does it not harm any of the engine parts it comes in contact with?

This is why it isn't common knowledge
Has Not Been Warmly Received

Questions asked of someone in the petroleum industry regarding ACETONE will often automatically trigger a string of negative reactions and perhaps false assertions. We may have heard them all. The mere mention of this additive represents such a threat to oil profits that you may get fabricated denials against the successful use of acetone in fuels.

The author has never found any valid reason for not using acetone in gasoline or diesel fuel. Plus it takes such a tiny amount to work. No wonder they fear this additive.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[leapdog 0]

Just to solve the damage parts mystery.

No Issues with the Engine Parts

I have soaked carburetor parts in acetone for months and even years to see if there is any deterioration. Any parts made to run with gasoline will work with acetone just fine. I presently have parts soaking in 1, 2, 5, and 10 % acetone/gasoline mixes as well as just gasoline. That is 20 to 200 times too much just to be sure. The 30R7 rated parts are in perfect condition. All my tests have been run with Texaco gasoline. I tested the gas stations in my area to FIRST find the best gasoline BEFORE putting acetone in the tank. But I have no idea from a pragmatic view what other gasolines do except that when I attempt to use them, my MPG drops like a rock. So for purely monetary reasons, I run the best available gasoline. When my dyno is built this summer, I will test all the gasolines in my area and publish the results on the web. I hear from engineers out West that Chevron gas is very good. I used it and it was fine during trips to California. I attach more credence to engineers who report things of interest to me because of their training and knowledge of testing methods. You may want to look up Science and Testing Methods in my site.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[leapdog 0]

Quote

>How does using the Ethanol effect the lifespan of your vehicle?? I
>have always heard that alcohol will rapidly deteriorate an engine.

From the article again -

Contrast with Alcohol

In contrast, alcohol has been shown to be corrosive in an engine, yet they put THAT into gasoline. Alcohol in general is anti-mileage. Alcohol is no good in fuels. In Brazil, millions of engines and fuel systems were ruined by alcohol. Yet they are talking of doubling the amount of alcohol in gasoline.

Furthermore, alcohol increases surface tension, producing the opposite effect from acetone. Alcohol in fuel attracts water. This hurts mileage because water acts like a fire extinguisher. Some cars may run badly and even quit due to the incombustible nature of the water-laden fuel. We know of a dozen cars that recently stopped running due to water in the alcohol and gas mixture. In my Neon, it frequently has cut the MPG in half on trips when I take pot luck at the pump.

In below-zero weather, the water and alcohol can form abrasive, icy particles that may damage fuel pumps and clog injectors.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[PhreeZone 20]

Find another independent source to support your arguements. I can show you sites that prove the moon landing was faked and that time travel is possible, that does'nt mke them true

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[leapdog 0]

Quote

Find another independent source to support your arguements. I can show you sites that prove the moon landing was faked and that time travel is possible, that does'nt mke them true

Playing devils advocate or just stiring the pot?

I wonder if we added acetone to the plane if the loads will get cheaper?

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[Broke 0]

I am sure if you did the testing then we shall see.

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192