ryan_d_sucks 0 #1 October 22, 2007 Hey, This may be a fundamental flaw in my understanding of how the cutaway system works, but what is the point in having an RSL hooked up to a rig that has SOS reserve deployment? If one handle cuts away and deploys the reserve why do you need an RSL hooked up to it? My understanding of the SOS is that the first half of the pull releases the 3 rings and jettisons the main and the second half of the pull (meaning once you've extended the cables completely) pops the reserve (not sure how-please fill me in). If an RSL works by pulling the pin from the reserve closing loop when the main risers fall away (correct me if I'm wrong, please), whats the point in having one if that's what the SOS does anyway? I'm asking because I've got a rig right now with an SOS system, and an RSL in place, but no loop on the risers for the RSL to clamp to- making the RSL not functional. And I also plan on asking my instructor about this next weekend, but I'm looking for some insight into it so I've got something to think about at work this week, and also some ideas to run by my instructor when I get there Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #2 October 22, 2007 Quotebut what is the point in having an RSL hooked up to a rig that has SOS reserve deployment? If one handle cuts away and deploys the reserve why do you need an RSL hooked up to it? Because people can pull the handle only far enough to cutaway, then panic and not pull the rest of the way to deploy the reserve, so there for a RSL is installed. QuoteI've got a rig right now with an SOS system, and an RSL in place, but no loop on the risers for the RSL to clamp to- If you really feel you need an RSL on your rig the missing ring is an easy fix and can be done cheap by a rigger. Some rigs like early sweethogs didn't have a shackel type RSL, they used a different type of attachment to the riser.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeffrey 1 #3 October 22, 2007 Quote Because people can pull the handle only far enough to cutaway, then panic and not pull the rest of the way to deploy the reserve, so there for a RSL is installed. So true and sadly, the last one I witnessed was the early 80’s in Z-hills. He was the brother in-law of a well known jumper and hung out with us often. He was able to lurk a free spot in the Cessna during some test jumps and go through the static line training system. On his third or forth jump (dummy R/C pulls), he cutaway a good canopy only seconds after opening, rolled over on his back and stayed that way till impacting 10’ from the pea gravel pit. Ryan, SOS systems are a bad idea and I gladly will be the to first offer helping you get rid of it. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 9 #4 October 22, 2007 Ditto to what Strat said... Twice I've seen where a student pulled the SOS just far enough to release the 3-rings, but not far enough to fire the reserve and it was the RSL that pulled the reserve as the main left. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerpaul 1 #5 October 22, 2007 QuoteDitto to what Strat said... Twice I've seen where a student pulled the SOS just far enough to release the 3-rings, but not far enough to fire the reserve and it was the RSL that pulled the reserve as the main left. First off, ditto what has been said regarding SOS systems. They came, they were found wanting, and they went (well mostly). But, as I recall, there was a time when the procedure being taught for an SOS was to pull enough to cutaway, wait to confirm that the main had left, and then to finish pulling the handle. Now, why someone would stop after the cutaway and not finish the Emergency Procedure, I can only guess. Maybe they were waiting for an RSL to save them. But the concept of delaying between the two different actions of the SOS was being *taught*. It didn't just get invented by the hapless jumper. So these events, though totally sad, were quite similar to the "cutaway and failed to deploy reserve" incidents that are still, inexplicably, part of the sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 9 #6 October 22, 2007 Way back "in the day" when I was a student, I was taught on R.I.'s Telisis system which has an SOS with the SOS handle on the left shoulder. As I recall, we were taught... went something like... in the event of an emergency, look at the handle, both hands on the handle, pull to full arm extension, strip the cables, throw the handle away, arch. i.e. no pause between the 3-rings releasing and pulling the SOS far enough to activate the reserve. Having said that, I know two up-jumpers that jumped SOS rigs (without an RSL) for years and like rigger paul says, they'd talk about pulling the SOS just far enough to release the 3-rings, yep, main gone, finish the pull to activate the reserve, but these were two very experienced skydivers, not students. The two cases I've seen of a student pulling an SOS just far enough release the 3-rings, but not activate the reserve were on different systems (i.e. the SOS handle at different places... one on the left shoulder... the other the SOS handle at the more traditional Reserve Handle location). In both cases... - AFF Student w/ Jumpmaster(s) & video - At pull time, for what ever reason, AFF student gets confused, goes to "pull", but... - Student gets a hold of the SOS handle instead of the main rip-cord - Student Pulls the SOS handle just far enough to release the 3-rings, but not activate the reserve - Again for what ever reason, student lets go of the SOS handle (now floating) - Student now goes for the mian rip-cord and pulls it - Main PC launches... bridle... bag... line-stretch... 3-Rings aren't hooked up, thus, main detaches / keeps going... - RSL activates the reserve - Studnet rides reserve down, doesn't know how (or even reaizes they're under a reserve) until they see video. ... in a somewhat similar scenario, but without an RSL (or the RSL un-hooks itself... it happens), you get a Lutz. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #7 October 22, 2007 Does anyone have a link to one or more SOS holy war threads? I should like to go re-read them to make sure anything I have to say on the matter has already been recorded. (This would also save me time in immediately seeing any historical replies...) -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #8 October 22, 2007 I see both side to the issue, however the dz I train at still has SOS in use, it has been a reliable system in the ten years I have put out students with it, NOT one student has bounced because of it. I'm not posting to debate what system is better. But I still train as follows. Quote look at the handle, both hands on the handle, pull to full arm extension, strip the cables, throw the handle away, arch. i.e. no pause between the 3-rings releasing and pulling the SOS far enough to activate the reserve.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 9 #9 October 22, 2007 Yeah, I hear that... the "Two Handles System vs. an SOS for students" debate is one that I too am tired of. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimjumper 25 #10 October 23, 2007 I had SOS systems on both my rigs for years. They are easy and work well. The only reason I switched was I started doing AFF and teaching a conventional system and using another, plus doing tandems with another system didn't seem like a good idea. They can be a pain finding a rigger who knows how they work. I actually had a new rigger in New Jersey that wanted to cut the handle up and try to re-install the conventional system! There are still jumpers that use SOS systems (Al Krueger for one) and for experienced jumpers they work as well if not better than the current 2 handle system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Floats18 0 #11 October 23, 2007 Strato trained me on a SOS system and I lived, but I think I got the SOS because I'm too dumb to grab two things with both my hands at the same time. THAT'S probably why I don't have a girlfriend! Damn my inferior skills, damn them to hell.--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever DiverDriver in Training Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #12 October 24, 2007 Agreed! Back in 1983. I had an IAD student pull an SOS handle far enough to release the main. "Then I felt some resistance, so I stopped pulling." He remained in a stable "frog" position until the FXC 8000 fired at maybe 300 feet! An RSL was not installed because the manufacturer had not figured out how to make an RSL that would not kink the cable when it pulled. 24 years later, no H/C manufacturer has figured out how to build an RSL that will not kink a conventional ripcord. Tee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 9 #13 October 24, 2007 Quote 24 years later, no H/C manufacturer has figured out how to build an RSL that will not kink a conventional ripcord. Ummm... what about Booth's idea where he puts the reserve pin on the end of the RSL and then the reserve rip cord is just a pin-puller? Do they kink the reserve rip-cord in the same manner when its the RSL that activates the reserve? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerpaul 1 #14 October 24, 2007 Quote Quote 24 years later, no H/C manufacturer has figured out how to build an RSL that will not kink a conventional ripcord. Ummm... what about Booth's idea where he puts the reserve pin on the end of the RSL and then the reserve rip cord is just a pin-puller? Do they kink the reserve rip-cord in the same manner when its the RSL that activates the reserve? You are right! It doesn't kink the cable. But Rob's post said "conventional ripcord", and Booth's implementation is hardly that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 9 #15 October 24, 2007 Quote Quote Quote 24 years later, no H/C manufacturer has figured out how to build an RSL that will not kink a conventional ripcord. Ummm... what about Booth's idea where he puts the reserve pin on the end of the RSL and then the reserve rip cord is just a pin-puller? Do they kink the reserve rip-cord in the same manner when its the RSL that activates the reserve? You are right! It doesn't kink the cable. But Rob's post said "conventional ripcord", and Booth's implementation is hardly that. Damn! I thought I had rob on the ropes there... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #16 October 24, 2007 I dunno the Vector II had that set up and that design is 15 years-ish old, yeah? How old does an idea have to be to be "conventional"? An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerpaul 1 #17 October 25, 2007 Quote I dunno the Vector II had that set up and that design is 15 years-ish old, yeah? How old does an idea have to be to be "conventional"? Conventional need not be about age. Regardless of its age, you cannot even put one of those UPT ripcords (with the marine eye) though the housing on MOST rigs, so how conventional could it be? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #18 October 25, 2007 Quote I dunno the Vector II had that set up and that design is 15 years-ish old, yeah? How old does an idea have to be to be "conventional"? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Old-school metal pins - swaged onto steel cable - are covered by an exhaustive set of MIL SPECS and TSO details ... making them "conventional" in my eyes. Last time I looked, Booth's curved pin was not mentioned specifically in TSO testing standards. ... kind of one of those things where is you exceed the old standard and don't kill anyone, the FAA does not want to be bothered rewriting the TSO ... At the end of the day, I will cheerfully trust my life to any of Booth's ripcords or RSLs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #19 October 25, 2007 Quote I dunno the Vector II had that set up and that design is 15 years-ish old, yeah? How old does an idea have to be to be "conventional"? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> About the same time we start calling nose-wheel airplanes "conventional." Tee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lauraliscious 0 #20 October 25, 2007 Quote Strato trained me on a SOS system and I lived, but I think I got the SOS because I'm too dumb to grab two things with both my hands at the same time. THAT'S probably why I don't have a girlfriend! Damn my inferior skills, damn them to hell. So... How do you flare??? Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites talon2 0 #21 October 27, 2007 Just for information. SOS system designed and patented in Australia and the USA by David Smith of Parachutes Australia in 1979. First production model, PA Pigmee with "Frap Wraps" Quickly superceded by Pigmee 1 with " 3 rings ". Pigmees went from model #1 to #5 and are no longer produced. A couple of US manufacturers produced SOS rigs under license and once the patent lapsed in the US SOS became an option taken up by others. It was identified very early on that the ease of which you could cutaway with SOS compared to 1 and a half shot , 1 shot ,R2s ,Tapewells etc was great for those with time in the sport . In introducing SOS to new or low time jumpers we had to do what all instructors have to do and go back and think "what is it like if I have not done this before". Thus......Clear cables..... Add an RSL...... The skydiving community and certainly the manufacturers have identified the cutaway .....no pull scenario..........They all offer RSLs as an option. Hope this helps . Mike PS......Pros and Cons of TAS , SOS or DOS are another discussion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
ZigZagMarquis 9 #4 October 22, 2007 Ditto to what Strat said... Twice I've seen where a student pulled the SOS just far enough to release the 3-rings, but not far enough to fire the reserve and it was the RSL that pulled the reserve as the main left. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #5 October 22, 2007 QuoteDitto to what Strat said... Twice I've seen where a student pulled the SOS just far enough to release the 3-rings, but not far enough to fire the reserve and it was the RSL that pulled the reserve as the main left. First off, ditto what has been said regarding SOS systems. They came, they were found wanting, and they went (well mostly). But, as I recall, there was a time when the procedure being taught for an SOS was to pull enough to cutaway, wait to confirm that the main had left, and then to finish pulling the handle. Now, why someone would stop after the cutaway and not finish the Emergency Procedure, I can only guess. Maybe they were waiting for an RSL to save them. But the concept of delaying between the two different actions of the SOS was being *taught*. It didn't just get invented by the hapless jumper. So these events, though totally sad, were quite similar to the "cutaway and failed to deploy reserve" incidents that are still, inexplicably, part of the sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #6 October 22, 2007 Way back "in the day" when I was a student, I was taught on R.I.'s Telisis system which has an SOS with the SOS handle on the left shoulder. As I recall, we were taught... went something like... in the event of an emergency, look at the handle, both hands on the handle, pull to full arm extension, strip the cables, throw the handle away, arch. i.e. no pause between the 3-rings releasing and pulling the SOS far enough to activate the reserve. Having said that, I know two up-jumpers that jumped SOS rigs (without an RSL) for years and like rigger paul says, they'd talk about pulling the SOS just far enough to release the 3-rings, yep, main gone, finish the pull to activate the reserve, but these were two very experienced skydivers, not students. The two cases I've seen of a student pulling an SOS just far enough release the 3-rings, but not activate the reserve were on different systems (i.e. the SOS handle at different places... one on the left shoulder... the other the SOS handle at the more traditional Reserve Handle location). In both cases... - AFF Student w/ Jumpmaster(s) & video - At pull time, for what ever reason, AFF student gets confused, goes to "pull", but... - Student gets a hold of the SOS handle instead of the main rip-cord - Student Pulls the SOS handle just far enough to release the 3-rings, but not activate the reserve - Again for what ever reason, student lets go of the SOS handle (now floating) - Student now goes for the mian rip-cord and pulls it - Main PC launches... bridle... bag... line-stretch... 3-Rings aren't hooked up, thus, main detaches / keeps going... - RSL activates the reserve - Studnet rides reserve down, doesn't know how (or even reaizes they're under a reserve) until they see video. ... in a somewhat similar scenario, but without an RSL (or the RSL un-hooks itself... it happens), you get a Lutz. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #7 October 22, 2007 Does anyone have a link to one or more SOS holy war threads? I should like to go re-read them to make sure anything I have to say on the matter has already been recorded. (This would also save me time in immediately seeing any historical replies...) -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #8 October 22, 2007 I see both side to the issue, however the dz I train at still has SOS in use, it has been a reliable system in the ten years I have put out students with it, NOT one student has bounced because of it. I'm not posting to debate what system is better. But I still train as follows. Quote look at the handle, both hands on the handle, pull to full arm extension, strip the cables, throw the handle away, arch. i.e. no pause between the 3-rings releasing and pulling the SOS far enough to activate the reserve.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #9 October 22, 2007 Yeah, I hear that... the "Two Handles System vs. an SOS for students" debate is one that I too am tired of. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimjumper 25 #10 October 23, 2007 I had SOS systems on both my rigs for years. They are easy and work well. The only reason I switched was I started doing AFF and teaching a conventional system and using another, plus doing tandems with another system didn't seem like a good idea. They can be a pain finding a rigger who knows how they work. I actually had a new rigger in New Jersey that wanted to cut the handle up and try to re-install the conventional system! There are still jumpers that use SOS systems (Al Krueger for one) and for experienced jumpers they work as well if not better than the current 2 handle system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Floats18 0 #11 October 23, 2007 Strato trained me on a SOS system and I lived, but I think I got the SOS because I'm too dumb to grab two things with both my hands at the same time. THAT'S probably why I don't have a girlfriend! Damn my inferior skills, damn them to hell.--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever DiverDriver in Training Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #12 October 24, 2007 Agreed! Back in 1983. I had an IAD student pull an SOS handle far enough to release the main. "Then I felt some resistance, so I stopped pulling." He remained in a stable "frog" position until the FXC 8000 fired at maybe 300 feet! An RSL was not installed because the manufacturer had not figured out how to make an RSL that would not kink the cable when it pulled. 24 years later, no H/C manufacturer has figured out how to build an RSL that will not kink a conventional ripcord. Tee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #13 October 24, 2007 Quote 24 years later, no H/C manufacturer has figured out how to build an RSL that will not kink a conventional ripcord. Ummm... what about Booth's idea where he puts the reserve pin on the end of the RSL and then the reserve rip cord is just a pin-puller? Do they kink the reserve rip-cord in the same manner when its the RSL that activates the reserve? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #14 October 24, 2007 Quote Quote 24 years later, no H/C manufacturer has figured out how to build an RSL that will not kink a conventional ripcord. Ummm... what about Booth's idea where he puts the reserve pin on the end of the RSL and then the reserve rip cord is just a pin-puller? Do they kink the reserve rip-cord in the same manner when its the RSL that activates the reserve? You are right! It doesn't kink the cable. But Rob's post said "conventional ripcord", and Booth's implementation is hardly that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #15 October 24, 2007 Quote Quote Quote 24 years later, no H/C manufacturer has figured out how to build an RSL that will not kink a conventional ripcord. Ummm... what about Booth's idea where he puts the reserve pin on the end of the RSL and then the reserve rip cord is just a pin-puller? Do they kink the reserve rip-cord in the same manner when its the RSL that activates the reserve? You are right! It doesn't kink the cable. But Rob's post said "conventional ripcord", and Booth's implementation is hardly that. Damn! I thought I had rob on the ropes there... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #16 October 24, 2007 I dunno the Vector II had that set up and that design is 15 years-ish old, yeah? How old does an idea have to be to be "conventional"? An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #17 October 25, 2007 Quote I dunno the Vector II had that set up and that design is 15 years-ish old, yeah? How old does an idea have to be to be "conventional"? Conventional need not be about age. Regardless of its age, you cannot even put one of those UPT ripcords (with the marine eye) though the housing on MOST rigs, so how conventional could it be? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #18 October 25, 2007 Quote I dunno the Vector II had that set up and that design is 15 years-ish old, yeah? How old does an idea have to be to be "conventional"? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Old-school metal pins - swaged onto steel cable - are covered by an exhaustive set of MIL SPECS and TSO details ... making them "conventional" in my eyes. Last time I looked, Booth's curved pin was not mentioned specifically in TSO testing standards. ... kind of one of those things where is you exceed the old standard and don't kill anyone, the FAA does not want to be bothered rewriting the TSO ... At the end of the day, I will cheerfully trust my life to any of Booth's ripcords or RSLs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #19 October 25, 2007 Quote I dunno the Vector II had that set up and that design is 15 years-ish old, yeah? How old does an idea have to be to be "conventional"? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> About the same time we start calling nose-wheel airplanes "conventional." Tee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lauraliscious 0 #20 October 25, 2007 Quote Strato trained me on a SOS system and I lived, but I think I got the SOS because I'm too dumb to grab two things with both my hands at the same time. THAT'S probably why I don't have a girlfriend! Damn my inferior skills, damn them to hell. So... How do you flare??? Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
talon2 0 #21 October 27, 2007 Just for information. SOS system designed and patented in Australia and the USA by David Smith of Parachutes Australia in 1979. First production model, PA Pigmee with "Frap Wraps" Quickly superceded by Pigmee 1 with " 3 rings ". Pigmees went from model #1 to #5 and are no longer produced. A couple of US manufacturers produced SOS rigs under license and once the patent lapsed in the US SOS became an option taken up by others. It was identified very early on that the ease of which you could cutaway with SOS compared to 1 and a half shot , 1 shot ,R2s ,Tapewells etc was great for those with time in the sport . In introducing SOS to new or low time jumpers we had to do what all instructors have to do and go back and think "what is it like if I have not done this before". Thus......Clear cables..... Add an RSL...... The skydiving community and certainly the manufacturers have identified the cutaway .....no pull scenario..........They all offer RSLs as an option. Hope this helps . Mike PS......Pros and Cons of TAS , SOS or DOS are another discussion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
