To cock or not to cock...that is my question

[frazeebd 0]

So I just bought a nice Spectre 210, my first canopy (I was renting this one prior to this, but finally found one to buy) and now I'm faced with a decision...
Currently I have a non-collapsable pilot chute. I hear that these put significant wear on the topskin of the main, and I'm concerned about that... is it really a concern?
I understand this is why collapsable pilot chutes were designed, but I was just curious if it was mostly hype or not?
Is there anything in particular to look for when shopping for a collapsible pilot chute? I went through how they work and how to cock one with an instructor over at my DZ the other day, so I understand the purpose, and how to cock it, and the 3 checks to see that it is properly cocked (float, color, exposed line).

[masterrig 1]

I have seen little or no wear from cocking pilot chutes. Any wear that I have seen was the way the canopy was put into the deployment bag. If, you watch your packing, you should have no problem. Any of the harness container manufacturer's make cocking pilot chutes as well as Cazer.


Chuck

[frazeebd 0]

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I have seen little or no wear from cocking pilot chutes. Any wear that I have seen was the way the canopy was put into the deployment bag.

Perhaps I misspoke... what I meant to say was that I was told that the reason to USE a collapsible pilot chute is that it reduces the wear on the topskin of the main by collapsing, vice when a regular pilot chute stays flying and pulling at the connection point. This SOUNDS like sound reasoning, but I was wondering if anybody had any hard data on whether or not this was more hype than anything else.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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what I meant to say was that I was told that the reason to USE a collapsible pilot chute is that it reduces the wear on the topskin of the main by collapsing, vice when a regular pilot chute stays flying and pulling at the connection point. This SOUNDS like sound reasoning, but I was wondering if anybody had any hard data on whether or not this was more hype than anything else.

I vote hype. Consider: what do you think puts more stress on the topskin... the steady pull under canopy or repeatedly yanking the bag out of the container during opening? Also, when was the last time you heard of a student canopy with a non-collapsable PC getting worn out and failing at the PC attachment point?

No, it's not a wear issue. What collapsable pilot chute WILL gain you is a small speed increase, a small lift increase, and better penetration into the wind. Given a choice I'd go collapsable every time, but unless you're under a small canopy (spectre 210 not so much) it's not a necessity. As canopy size decreases, it becomes an issue because the PC can actually deform the airfoil.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[darkwing 5]

I'm assuming you load the canopy fairly lightly. I wouldn't see a pressing need for you to get a new pilot chute now. I view it as more of a performance issue than a wear issue.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[frazeebd 0]

Wow... ok cool, thats good to know.

I didn't realize that the PC can be such a bugger on a small canopy.... granted on my 210 at about a 0.95 wingloading its most likely a mere drop in the ocean of drag/lift.

[masterrig 1]

I understand you, now. I think, the other posters have covered it.


Chuck

[dragon2 2]

It definately helps your canopy fly better. I'd say from a 170 and down you'd want one for sure. Bigger canopy, not sure the slight benefit outweighs the negatives; it is a high maintenance item (replacing the killline every so many jumps) and more potential for a mal (forgetting to cock etc). I'd buy one when you get to a smaller size canopy and/or you want to wring all performance out of your main, like pulling the slider down behind your neck etc.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[peek 21]

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...what I meant to say was that I was told that the reason to USE a collapsible pilot chute is that it reduces the wear on the topskin of the main by collapsing, vice when a regular pilot chute stays flying and pulling at the connection point.

So who exactly told you that?

[frazeebd 0]

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So who exactly told you that?

Someone who works at one of the local DZ's, an instructor who is also in charge of the DZ gear shop... I was shopping for a canopy and related things, and the subject came up about collapsible pilot chutes and I said straightup that I had no idea what one even was. She took one out and showed me how it worked and how to cock it and check that it is properly cocked.. specifically the 3 methods were inflation (drop it or swing it and check that it catches air and inflates), color (check for the color band behind the main pin), and exposed line (check at the bag for how much white line is coming out).
Perhaps she stuck with the "wear & tear" reason in the discussion because I was shopping for a canopy or something... I have no idea.
Either way its good to be able to ask things like this here. Thanks for all the info.
And on that subject... are there different types/brands of collapsible pilot chutes to be aware of? I mean do some work differently than others?

[AggieDave 6]

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I have seen little or no wear from cocking pilot chutes. Any wear that I have seen was the way the canopy was put into the deployment bag. If, you watch your packing, you should have no problem. Any of the harness container manufacturer's make cocking pilot chutes as well as Cazer.

What about cocking the PC once the canopy is in the bag with an exposed kill line design (like Wings or Javelin, not like RWS' design). I've always felt like that could increase some wear on the canopy during the cocking of the PC. Have you seen that before?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[peek 21]

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Someone who works at one of the local DZ's, an instructor who is also in charge of the DZ gear shop...

Pardon my comments, but sometimes I can't believe some of the things that people choose to worry about. (Not you, her!) It's like some people are trying to find reasons to use something as a solution.

Common sense would indicate to any skydiver that the pilot chute pulling on the attachment point during canopy flight is quite small compared to the force of extracting the canopy from the container.

Goodness, if there were issues with that, the canopy manufacturers would have seen it a long time ago.

With information like that it is apparent that you are going to want to cross check what you are told with a number of sources.

Good luck.

[masterrig 1]

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I have seen little or no wear from cocking pilot chutes. Any wear that I have seen was the way the canopy was put into the deployment bag. If, you watch your packing, you should have no problem. Any of the harness container manufacturer's make cocking pilot chutes as well as Cazer.

What about cocking the PC once the canopy is in the bag with an exposed kill line design (like Wings or Javelin, not like RWS' design). I've always felt like that could increase some wear on the canopy during the cocking of the PC. Have you seen that before?

Yessir, I sure have. Usually 'burning' from getting loose parachute fabric involved with the bridle/kill-line 'slack' between the bottom of the deployment bag and the connection point on the top of the parachute. Not very often but, I have seen it.


Chuck

[BrianM 1]

[replyCommon sense would indicate to any skydiver that the pilot chute pulling on the attachment point during canopy flight is quite small compared to the force of extracting the canopy from the container.

[peek 21]

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Extracting the canopy from the container doesn't apply any force at all to the bridle attachment point on the canopy. Extracting the canopy from the bag, however, does...

In the case of collapsable pilot chutes you are correct! I forgot that detail.

I suppose what I was thinking about was back when people used #8 grommets in their bag to collapse the pilot chute. If there were strength or wear issues the canopy manufacturers would have learned about it then.

[DJL 235]

Dear dude. People on the internet like to split hairs all day long. You're asking about something that isn't an issue. Get a cocking/collapsing PC, you'll end up with one evetually, may as well get it now and get used to it.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[riggermick 7]

fwitw. the deployment bag takes the brunt of the load during deployment not the canopy, unless it's a badly designed bag. so no worrieis about canopy wear and tear. sleep well on this issue.

mick.