UVH 0 #1 November 8, 2007 hello i have an issue with the Airforce reserve canopy - Australian made. i am trying to figure out if it has a formal TSO (c23d) by the FAA. The canopy's manual tells that it has been tested just as the TSO standard. It is not clear enough, since it might just tested as TSO, but never got the right approvals from the FAA. PA, USPA, FAA did not provide me any clear paper to prove it so far. i got to have the right paper work, otherwise i wont be able to jump it, since my rigger has to know for sure that it is up to the legal standards. So guys, do u know? Do u have the right documentation? Do you know who should I contact with to get the right answer? here is a link to PA: http://www.parachutesaustralia.com Thanks a lot. I would love If u can send me your answers to: harelyuval@walla.co.il Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #2 November 8, 2007 If a parachute is certificated it must have a TSO label. If the label is absent, the TSO is void. Your rigger should know that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UVH 0 #3 November 8, 2007 my rigger did not see the canopy yet. he told me on the phone what should i do - get the paper work done. i got to have the right papers to prove it. thanks anyway UV Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,311 #4 November 8, 2007 Even if it's a military reserve canopy? Quote§ 105.3____ Definitions. For the purposes of this part— Approved parachute means a parachute manufactured under a type certificate or a Technical Standard Order (C–23 series), OR a personnel-carrying U.S. military parachute (other than a high altitude, high speed, or ejection type) identified by a Navy Air Facility, an Army Air Field, and Air Force-Navy drawing number, an Army Air Field order number, or any other military designation or specification number. This could be a sticky one since it sounds as though its Australian made for the Australian Air Force, but since he's quoting FAA??????????Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 42 #5 November 8, 2007 Have you contacted the manufacturer and asked the the question? Surely they are the best authority on what certifications their gear has been granted."Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UVH 0 #6 November 8, 2007 yes i have. that was my very first move, but they havent answered me so far (after few emails), as it is writen at the original add. UV Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #7 November 9, 2007 Quotemy rigger did not see the canopy yet. he told me on the phone what should i do - get the paper work done. i got to have the right papers to prove it. thanks anyway UV Do you have the canopy? Can you not look for the label yourself? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,363 #8 November 9, 2007 Hi BIGUN, If memory serves me correctly, the 'AirForce' canopy was a reserve made by Parachutes Australia for civilian/sport useage and is not a military canopy. It's the name that is confusing, JerryBaumchen PS) If no TSO label = no TSO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,311 #9 November 9, 2007 Jerry, I didn't know that. I was kinda scratching my head on that one. That would explain a lot. Thank you. KeithNobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #10 November 9, 2007 Go here http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgtso.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet You can look under each parachute TSO C23, b, c, and d and look for Parachute Australia. Then open the area under the manufacturer to see the list of items granted TSO approval. Open the individual item for details. I don't see "airforce" listed, but there are older TSO's under B and a couple of newer ones under C named by part number. Check your canopy for a part number before you look. But your answer is at this website, straight from the FAA. From the manual for the canopy. "The Airforce Ram Air Reserve Parachute Canopy has been tested to the requirements of the Civil Aviation Authority, Civil Air Order 103.18 Equipment Standards – Emergency Parachutes. To demonstrate compliance with CAO 103.18, the United States Federal Aviation Administration, Technical Standard Order T.S.O – C23 (b) was used as the specification. Parachutes Australia has the authority to identify the Airforce Ram Air Reserve Parachute Canopy with Civil Aviation Authority CAO 103.18 markings. The Airforce reserve meets the requirements for a Low Speed Category Parachute and is limited to use in aeroplanes up to 150 miles per hour." IF it held a U.S. FAA TSO certification it would say so. It holds certification uncer CAO103.18. My conclusion is it is not "TSO'd" legal for use in the U.S. by a U.S. citizen. Don't know the rules in Israel but I know who does. I thought Parachutes de France gear was used in Israel. It doesn't have a U.S. TSO. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UVH 0 #11 November 9, 2007 yes - u right. its only the name... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UVH 0 #12 November 9, 2007 That is a progression… Got a short email from Parachute Australia (PA - the manufacture): The Airforce reserve is TSO C23(b) The Talon is TSO C23(c) Regards, Greg Sitkowski Parachutes Australia Now, as for Parachute De-France, you right – we are using it here in Israel. I don’t know if it has TSO, but I think that the Aviation rules here following the American as well as the rules in Europe. So, we are not allowed Australian, unless it has TSO (or the comparable one in Europe). Still- I don’t have the paper work in my hands & I got to have it. For some reason PA sent me only an answer, but without any proof. So, here we are, back to the beginning point, can anyone help me out here? I got to have the right documentation if I want to jump it… Anyway, thanks to everyone here… u did help a lot! UV Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #13 November 9, 2007 Quote Got a short email from Parachute Australia (PA - the manufacture): The Airforce reserve is TSO C23(b) "TSO" is two parts: initial testing, then quality control system to ensure production articles are the same as test articles. "Tested to the standards of TSO C-23b Low Speed Category" meets the first part, but doesn't address the second part. The manual section entitled "Test Standards" does NOT make the claim that the Airforce reserve is approved under TSO C-23b, just that it was tested and that it can be marked with Australian markings (but not U.S. markings). What is the exact phrase in their email regarding the Airforce and TSO? Thanks, Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #14 November 9, 2007 If you can't find it on the FAA web site it doesn't have a TSO. There manual certainly doesn't claim it does. Only that the TSO C23b testing was used to satisfy the Australian CAB. It's up to the authorities in Israel to decide if this is good enough.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #15 November 9, 2007 As much as I know the PA "Airforce" R is not FAA TSO'd but was tested using the guide lines of TSO C23B "Low Speed" category & was approved by the Australian CAA - CAO 103.18 ONLY. The Airforce R is not on the FAA list - see links: http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgtso.nsf/0/ACEE5E177F8DBF5085256E5900556FDC?OpenDocument http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgtso.nsf/0/58328D49B2B1E94F85256E5900556961?OpenDocument http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgtso.nsf/0/84FDD365AEB6BB6985256E5900556B68?OpenDocument Read also the Parachute Manual Volume 2 by Dan Poynter page no. 157 & 158. Be Safe !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BKR 0 #16 November 9, 2007 Beware, the FAA web site is not completely updated. Several equipements are missing from their list.Jérôme Bunker Basik Air Concept www.basik.fr http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #17 November 9, 2007 You right but as much as I know it is not FAA approved. Be Safe!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,363 #18 November 10, 2007 Hi Terry, Many years ago I was reading something (I can no longer remember just what exactly) but did find that Australia used NAS 804 for their test standard (that is the referenced standard in TSO C23(b)). I would 'suppose' that today they would use similar (i.e, later standards such as the AS 8015's) test standards; but I do not know for sure. Just have not needed to know, JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UVH 0 #19 November 10, 2007 that is what PA wrote me - the exact phrase: "The Airforce reserve is TSO C23(b) The Talon is TSO C23(c) Regards, Greg Sitkowski Parachutes Australia " UV Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #20 November 10, 2007 Quotethat is what PA wrote me - the exact phrase: "The Airforce reserve is TSO C23(b) . . . " That is a curious turn of phrase. There is a difference between "tested to the standards of TSO C23(b)" and "approved under TSO C23(b)." PA's wording doesn't answer the question you asked. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
