round reserve and cypress?

[phoenixlpr 0]

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It is not about how often you need to use either, it is about what is the safer option.

Most experienced jumper (swoopers in particular) that I know load their reserves quite high.
If unconscious and an AAD fired how many would survive the landing unhurt?

If a 2 out developed into a downplane during a swoop you will get hurt, you may die.

I think a round will improve your chances in both scenarios.

Oh and am I pretty sure a round will open quicker than a square.
Could be handy if you are that low that an AAD fires under non swoop conditions.

Keeping things clear. I never said anything about what cypres claim now or then. All I was saying is that if he had a round reserve the outcome MIGHT have been different.

So please explain why you think it is stupid and tell me what problems it would create.

This quote is taken from incident forum.

Here goes my opinion. I have not got any cypress fire yet, but I have 9 round jumps so far. I jump place surrounded by high risk obstacles and hazards like forest, lakes, etc. I prefer to choose my place of landing over that minimal benefit of round reserves that I don't have to cut my main away in case of using reserve.

Using round reserve is not a solution for false positive AAD activation.

[punkd 0]

Agreed, choosing a place to land would be far better than drifting to where a round dictates you land. Now what if you are unconscious, still prefer that highly loaded square over a round? Hazards aside, the round might leave you more intact after landing.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Now what if you are unconscious, still prefer that highly loaded square over a round? Hazards aside, the round might leave you more intact after landing.

Someone should provide some statistics. What is more likely?

A. Having a reserve ride with and able to steer reserve.

B. Having a reserve ride from a false positive AAD activation?

C. Having a reserve ride while jumper is unconscious.

I don't have data to support this, but I think A > B > C.

I'd be rather under a highly loaded square reserve after cutting a line twist away, than land a round reserve where the wind blows me....

[wmw999 2,439]

It's inaccurate to say that a round reserve is unsteerable (well, a 4-line release is barely steerable -- those suck). It doesn't have the same forward speed as a square, and won't take you as far. But in its favor, due to its low speed, it can land in much smaller areas, because it sinks right in.

That said, I have a square reserve. But one downside of the square is the expensive freebag and pilot chute. There are other reasons to prefer square reserves for most people (currency with round jumps and PLFs, general gear fear)

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[riggerrob 643]

Oh and am I pretty sure a round will open quicker than a square.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Are you sure?
What type of canopy are 99 percent of BASE jumpers using?

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Oh and am I pretty sure a round will open quicker than a square.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Are you sure?
What type of canopy are 99 percent of BASE jumpers using?

That was not my quote.

I guess they don;t trust the winds either.

AFAIK they use rounds on low altitude and intentionally into water...

[RiggerLee 61]

When I started we still had round reserves in our student rigs. A dual canopy out was a nothing event. In some ways I beleave this was the safest system. The only true down sides were the wind restrictions and harder lanpings for bigger jumpers. I've often asked people why they jump an AAD and their answer is always, "What if I get knocked out?" They always look at me like I've got a horn growing out of my head when I ask them if they have a round reserve? The 200 lb guy can not grasp that his 126 will not stand him up on it's own when he's knocked out.
I laugh some times.

Lee

And rounds steer fine. We jump them for fun some times. I've never gotten a disc but I've often landed in the peas.

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[councilman24 37]

Hmm, based on experience with throwing students and my own round jumps (300 or so, no tree landings) I'd rather go into trees with a round. Also, I've seen many people hurt by hitting the side of stuff under ramairs, not swooping. Not as much danger of that with round. If you have lakes big enough that a round might not fly off it then you might very well be able to fly away from a lake with a ram air. But either case you should be wearing floatation gear on every jump.

As to steering. IIRC they went from a 10 cm disc to a 5 when people got to good with their ram airs. Sounds like they're steerable to me. Actually, about 20 years after my previous round jump I made a round jump on a Phantom 28 resreve about 3 years ago. Exited at 5000' about a half mile out and hit our 30' pea pit.

But, I also have square reserves. And AAD's. If someone is worried about firing an AAD inadvertantly (different from a misfire) then they should correct what they are doing to fire that AAD.

BTW the same opening speed requirements under the TSO test standards apply to ram airs and rounds.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[skybytch 273]

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Actually, about 20 years after my previous round jump I made a round jump on a Phantom 28 resreve about 3 years ago. Exited at 5000' about a half mile out and hit our 30' pea pit.

Yeah, but you know how to spot.

[N24 0]

How would it be to use a cypres with 3 cutters
1 for the reserve as usual, and the other 2 for the loops of the 3ring?



at best in combination with an skyhook, if you pull your main low and your cypres decides to fire your hanging only on your reserve , no risk of downplane or res. /main entanglement.

Ok really low misfires would suck a bit .

[D22369 0]

I operated the radio when i worked for skydive Yakima, had a student misfire while he was on final at about 200' (sentinel)

when the reserve inflated, round 28' phantom it tipped back as the foreward speed began towing it, the main (raven 4) tipped foreward then they swung together and he landed - damn good plf too

I could have been much worse if it had been a ram air reserve, or perhaps the two would have flew just fine... toss the dice

not sure what a cross braced and highly loaded canopy would end up doing if a round basically stopped its normal flight speed,...


Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[LouDiamond 1]

First off, you quoted a swooping scenario and then posted your opinions on landing under a round for an accidental AAD fire. So I am assuming your question pertains to the use of a swooping canopy with a round reserve firing low due to the swoop speed exceeding the parameters of the AAD and having a 2 out scenario.


A little background, the Canadians use a round static line deployed canopy that can be deployed at 250 feet and the US used to conduct combat drops at 500 feet on T-10 rounds back in the day. Rounds can be deployed very quickly and CAN be steered by a competent jumper using just risers. They aren't as maneuverable as a square, thats a given, but the jumper isn't at the mercy of the canopy entirely.


If my assumption is correct about what you are asking then I can point you to a video(if I can find it, it's been awhile) or at least who you can contact about the use of highly loaded squares used with a round. OK, I didn't find the exact video I was thinking about but THIS video at the end shows how a square canopy reacts when a round canopy is deployed in a 2 out situation.

The squares in the above video are loaded up pretty high, higher than most swoopers routinely load their canopies. Things to note are how the square canopy reacts once the round deploys and to the slow down ,if not stop, to the horizontal movement/speed. So, if I am correct in what you are asking, from what can be seen in the videos, a round reserve canopy might be preferable to a square reserve accidentally firing low to the ground during a high performance landing as we know from several fatalities what happens when 2 squares come out during a swoop.

I don't think its definitive proof but it demonstrates that it is feasible. Of course it would have to be tested in scenarios similar to the common turns done during a high performance landing to make a true determination.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[councilman24 37]

I also know how to start final approach right after opening at 3000'.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[phoenixlpr 0]

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A little background, the Canadians use a round static line deployed canopy that can be deployed at 250 feet and the US used to conduct combat drops at 500 feet on T-10 rounds back in the day. Rounds can be deployed very quickly and CAN be steered by a competent jumper using just risers. They aren't as maneuverable as a square, thats a given, but the jumper isn't at the mercy of the canopy entirely.

Would you jump your regular airfoil from those planes? Why would you think that a round reserve would be fine for usual "turbine operation"? "You spot for your reserve...."

As I told, I had 9 jumps with RS4/4A round system. One of them was from

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The squares in the above video are loaded up pretty high, higher than most swoopers routinely load their canopies. Things to note are how the square canopy reacts once the round deploys and to the slow down ,if not stop, to the horizontal movement/speed. So, if I am correct in what you are asking, from what can be seen in the videos, a round reserve canopy might be preferable to a square reserve accidentally firing low to the ground during a high performance landing as we know from several fatalities what happens when 2 squares come out during a swoop.

Those videos are scarry. Those gadgets fly like a skydiver..

I still rather take the risk of a two-out, than jump a round even as a reserve.

[collinb 0]

slightly off topic but ......from ACTUAL experience…back in 197X I was jumping a Cloud Lite and a 24ft navy conical in a wonderhog and had 5 malfunctions. 4 of them I chose to do a main-reserve transfer as the malfunctions where controllable but not landable – slow turns due to steering lines tangled or something like that or a line-over that was flying fairly straight but decent rate was to high to land, can’t remember exactly which, why and when.

All I did was slow whatever turn was there as much as possible and pop the reserve, the Navy conical streamed out behind me due to the forward speed and as it opened the Cloud dove forward and I either cut it away or I do remember a couple of times waited until the Cloud actually deflated as there was no forward speed to keep it inflated and just pulled it up into a bundle and tucked it between my legs and dropped it about 20-30 feet off the ground.

Steering “high performance” round reserves is pretty easy ands pretty good, back then with PC’s and other canopies like that, (Papillion’s rocked!), and accuracy was practiced if you didn’t score less than a meter total you needed, and where encouraged, to work at your canopy control!

I have had several long conversations with people about the pro’s and con’s of going back to this configuration. I am still considering it, there are some powerful reasons why in my opinion.

[LouDiamond 1]

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Would you jump your regular airfoil from those planes?

I'm in the military and have been jumping rounds since 1987, so yeah I would and do. If you mean my square main canopy from 250 ft, then the answer is no, most people wouldn't even consider jumping their square reserve from that altitude. I'm not sure I understand what your question or point is. I posted that info to establish a base line and also answer some of the other questions posed in this thread about round canopies.

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Why would you think that a round reserve would be fine for usual "turbine operation"? "You spot for your reserve...."

What do you think people used to jump with back in the day? It was not uncommon not long ago for someone to have a square main and a round reserve, just look at the post above this one by Collinb.

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As I told, I had 9 jumps with RS4/4A round system. One of them was from

I have been jumping rounds for a little over 18 years and still do on occasion at work, so I have a "few"round jumps to use as a reference. When I started out, routine jumps were from 800 feet with full combat equipment, at night, with 100 other guys in the sky. Oh yeah, and it was uphill both ways

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I still rather take the risk of a two-out, than jump a round even as a reserve

Hey, you asked the question, I'm just answering it. I'm not here trying to convince you one way or another on what YOU should do. I'll leave that up to you

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[SEREJumper 1]

It is just a fact that not to many skydivers today have jumped rounds (unless your military, and T-10's aren't the best as far as stearing goes). I've got 55 jumps on a C-9 28' round. There is a big misconseption about rounds in my opinion. People fear what they are not used to. Same goes for B-12 snaps vs. thread through adapters. They used to be the only thing around (along with quick ejector snaps), now lots of people are scared of them. The times have just changed and I don;t think many people will every change their minds about it.

We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

[gay-unicorn 0]

I think there's two sides.

For one if your having reserve rides left and right than a round reserve is not the best choice.

But if your if you knocked uncouncious, 2 out, or while swooping I will take a round reserve anyday.

I am not looking forward to when I have a reserve ride under my 18ft Sac

Don't hate me 'cause you aint me.

[peckerhead 0]

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I am not looking forward to when I have a reserve ride under my 18ft Sac

I landed a 22ft Sac after a cutaway at 10 grand. I was only about 135lbs at the time. It was a difficult landing in strong winds, I think now a days they might refer to it as "extreme"



Never heard of an 18ft sac but if there is such a thing I would think twice on that one.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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There is a big misconseption about rounds in my opinion. People fear what they are not used to.

I do not fear it. I just don't like way it "flies" and I do not like the way it lands.

There are areas where it is superior, but that is not sport skydiving.

Why none wants to have a triangular reserve BTW?
I have 3 rides on PZ-81. It does not have free-bag, it has a steep glide, so you may sink into tight places and you can flare it on landing.

Oh best for the least: cut your main away, because a square and a triangular won't fly together just kill each other and you too.

[phoenixlpr 0]

I'm sorry. I've read your book and I know your background.

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What do you think people used to jump with back in the day? It was not uncommon not long ago for someone to have a square main and a round reserve, just look at the post above this one by Collinb.

Spotting and jump runs were different. I've been to some loads where people were using squares and rounds mixed.

[swish 0]

Pz-81 rocks :) Saved my life on jump 11 (AFF). Situation - two out

[riggerrob 643]

I have been jumping rounds for a little over 18 years and still do on occasion at work, so I have a "few"round jumps to use as a reference. When I started out, routine jumps were from 800 feet with full combat equipment, at night, with 100 other guys in the sky. Oh yeah, and it was uphill both ways

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You forgot to mention "in the snow" which is why the Canadian Army's Basic Parachutist Course (static-line) includes jumping with rucksack, rifle and snowshoes.

[riggerrob 643]

A little background, the Canadians use a round static line deployed canopy that can be deployed at 250 feet ...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Please share with us what the Canadian Army is using today.
Canadian tax-payers are always the last to know.

Deploying static-lined rounds from below 500 feet is not a new concept.
Even back in the 1980s, I would cheerfully have jumped a CT-1 (T-10 with anti-inversion net) from 500 feet, with no reserve.
During the 1980s, the French developed their TAP and the Brits developed the LLP for the same mission.
In 1994, I helped GQ Defense drop-test a bunch of round canopies specifically designed for low-altitude (sub-500 foot) static-line deployment .
In the late 1990s, Butler patented his BAT Sombrero slider-equipped series of roiund canopies and tried to sell them to special forces types. To date, Butler has only ANNOUNCED Sombrero sales for tandem bundles. Makes you wonder what other SF types are using Butler canopies without the courtesy for warning the Taliban that they are coming????

Similarly - during the 2007 PIA Symposium - Bill Gargano bragged about steerable round canopy he had developed for smoke-jumpers and a US Army Special Forces group out of Colorado.

The bottom line is, there are plenty of military round canopies specifically designed for low-altitude deployment, but I would not want to deploy most of them at high altitudes or high airspeeds.

[riggerrob 643]

AFAIK they use rounds on low altitude and intentionally into water...