Vector Tru-Lock problem

[FlyingBlueJay 0]

The other day I opened, looked up, and didn't really like what I saw! I had a lineover on the right most cell of my canopy and I was also spiraling, not too violently as I'm moderately loaded ~ 1.07, down to the right. I cleared the lineover, with my toggles still stowed, without much trouble. My next thought was, OK... Why am I spinning?. I unstow my toggles, but only the right one came out. The left was stuck and didn't look right. I tried pulling it out again but it was still stuck. I tried two more times (ready to chop if it didn't release on that third try) and with a hard pull, it came out and I was flying straight and had an uneventful rest of the flight and landing.

When I got down, I inspected my left riser/toggle and found that the metal pin from the Tru-Lock was bent 90 degrees and one of the loops on the back to stow excess brake line was ripped apart.

Everyone at the DZ was amazed that the pin had bent because of how much force it must have taken.

I think I had a brake fire and the Tru-Lock system worked, but in it's functioning caused these other problems. I am 99.9% sure that I packed the toggles/excess correctly.

Has anyone else had a similar experience? Do these pins bend frequently?

There is a picture of the bent pin, but I don't have it. If I get it soon, I'll post it here.

There is an art, or rather a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss. Pick a nice day, and try it. - Douglas Adams

[popsjumper 2]

IMHO, with the exception of small HP canopies, the Tru-lock system on risers is overkill and can cause more problems than it solves. A premature brake/toggle release (please call it what it is, not "brake fire") is really a simple problem to fix on most other canopies...even for students.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[diablopilot 2]

I'd say that much hardware is overkill for anything save maybe special CRW applications.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[pilotdave 0]

One pin is "that much hardware?"

I've got somewhere around 1000 jumps on risers with trulock toggles and no problems. They work well... I don't see how they're overkill. I'd guess any big problems are caused by mistakes in setting the brakes and stowing the excess line. I stow em just like the manual shows and teach anybody packing for me how to do it correctly.

Dave

[deadbug 0]

I'm with Dave. I have never had a Prob with my Tru Lock's. I pack as per the manual, and have never had a brake release on deployment or had a prob releasing the toggles. What really scares me is a 12" loop of excess break line flopping around unstowed just looking for something to snag on.

DA

[DougH 270]

Funny you mention that. I use the two pieces of tape on the back of my aerodyne risers to stow my excess.

I do not pin the excess, I think it over complicates things. I have never had the excess come loose in almost 500 jumps.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[JeepDiver 0]

I'd have to agree with Dave also. I've never had a problem with mine in nearly 400 jumps.

In fact before the pin was to bend, since it (the pin) acts as a secondary to of the toggle being stowed in the keeper itself I'd like to see how you're stowing your toggles, excess brake line using the pin, with the line keepers on the reverse side of the risers, etc. or how your brakes were stowed before the jump in question.

My question is with the pin bending if the tip of the toggle is properly stowed in the first place the fabric would have had to have been damaged if not properly anchored in the first place since the pin is a secondary anchor point only.

Without checking so I may be unsure. I do not believe that the pin is used or recommended per the owners manual to stow excess brake line.

[Couloirman 0]

If any of you actually do decide to actually stow the excess brake line in the pin make sure this doesn't happen...


http://www.chutingstar.com/archives/00000131.html

[JeepDiver 0]

My canopy is large. I doubt there is more excess brake line than I have to deal with. This is how I stow my excess line as detailed in a post awhile back when I was at the Farm.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2818876;#2818876

I'd like to hear someone from UPT chime in as to the force needed to bend the toggle pin.

I understand the shock forces of deployment would be applied 1st to the brake line/toggle/guide ring/fabric keeper for the tip of the toggle, and not to the pin itself.



I looked at the manual online.
http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Manual/09354(V3_Manual).pdf

Personally I never liked the idea of stowing the brake line with the pin. I must have discarded that idea when I started using my system due to the amount of excess line I had to deal with and it seemed to me at the time to be problematic for me..

[bliston 0]

About 10 years ago, I mistakenly stowed one toggle with with the "eye" above the guidering. The result was damage to the system of about the same magnitude that you mentioned.

Given the force that it would take to bend the pin and rip out one of the loops on the back of the riser, I wonder if this was the case here. With misfires that happen as a result of the slider knocking a toggle free or somone unintentially releasing a break during a snivel, it seems that the "load" on the break line isn't severe enough to rip stuff up like that (since the time of max loading of the line has already occurred). From your descripition, I'd guess that the fire happened before the canopy came out of the bag...

If there is damage to the top toggle keeper on the riser (the hood), you stowing the break above the guide ring was likely the cause. The concerns other folks posted certainly merit consideration, but maybe this info can shed light on this particular incident.

I, too, was 99.9% sure that I stowed my brakes correctly... but that .1% can be a bitch. I don't mean to point the finger back to you in an "absolute" way; there are certainly other posible explanations. Just offering my unsolicted best guess as to what happened.

Ben

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[deadbug 0]

Quote

If any of you actually do decide to actually stow the excess brake line in the pin make sure this doesn't happen...


http://www.chutingstar.com/archives/00000131.html

I stow the excess with the pin, but I jump a tiny canopy that has very little excess brake line. After I thread the excess through the elastic keepers on the back of the risers, I'm left with a loop about 4" in length. The loop is not big enough to cause the reach through knot malfunction. I don't need to pin that small loop, but I do and it works great for me.

Doug

[Fast 0]

Quote

Quote

If any of you actually do decide to actually stow the excess brake line in the pin make sure this doesn't happen...


http://www.chutingstar.com/archives/00000131.html

I stow the excess with the pin, but I jump a tiny canopy that has very little excess brake line. After I thread the excess through the elastic keepers on the back of the risers, I'm left with a loop about 4" in length. The loop is not big enough to cause the reach through knot malfunction. I don't need to pin that small loop, but I do and it works great for me.

Doug

yeah I am in the same situation as you. We have however had two reach through "malfunctions" at my dz. Both jumpers were new jumpers and opted to cutaway. I just want to point out though that, you can cause a reach through problems with other types of risers too. I have gotten a glove stuck in the excess loop for a while with a sloppy grab before. They key point is that you need to be looking at what you are doing when you are unstowing your brakes.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Booster_MPS 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

If any of you actually do decide to actually stow the excess brake line in the pin make sure this doesn't happen...


http://www.chutingstar.com/archives/00000131.html

I stow the excess with the pin, but I jump a tiny canopy that has very little excess brake line. After I thread the excess through the elastic keepers on the back of the risers, I'm left with a loop about 4" in length. The loop is not big enough to cause the reach through knot malfunction. I don't need to pin that small loop, but I do and it works great for me.

Doug

yeah I am in the same situation as you. We have however had two reach through "malfunctions" at my dz. Both jumpers were new jumpers and opted to cutaway. I just want to point out though that, you can cause a reach through problems with other types of risers too. I have gotten a glove stuck in the excess loop for a while with a sloppy grab before. They key point is that you need to be looking at what you are doing when you are unstowing your brakes.

Fast - very good point. This bit me once as well and it really highlighted that every thing we do from climbing in the aircraft to walking in the packing room matters (as well as your pack job). There are no "little things" or "minor details" in skydiving - have fun, but bring your A game every time you are at the DZ.

I think that new jumpers (like myself) need to hear these experiences from seasoned jumpers to help give them an awareness of skydiving safely.

[tdog 0]

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IMHO, with the exception of small HP canopies, the Tru-lock system on risers is overkill and can cause more problems than it solves.

I guess I have a higher performance Katana - but the tru-lock pin and tabs on the back of the riser did - once - catch the line on a "brake fire" (sorry to the guy who does not like this common term) - and only let out a few inches of line. As it was, it was a very nasty situation that I could fix. Without the method of stowing I used, it would have been a chop.

I like mine.

I don't know what problems it causes.

[tdog 0]

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I think I had a brake fire and the Tru-Lock system worked, but in it's functioning caused these other problems. I am 99.9% sure that I packed the toggles/excess correctly.

#1 - It is possible you put the tab thru the toggle above the metal ring - and caused part of the problem... How is the tape that the toggle tab goes into? Damaged?

#2 - With Tru-locks, you have to push the metal pin in all the way. A slight bit of the metal pin not in all the way will cause a brake fire.

[popsjumper 2]

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...I don't know what problems it causes.

Sorry guy, but I have to call you on this...

You're very next post lists two potential problems.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[pilotdave 0]

Well, #1 applies to any risers/toggles. (I assume he meant the tab on the toggle going through the cats eye above the metal ring).

And I don't understand #2. How does having the pin not quite all the way in cause a brake release? I can see that it might cause the top of the toggle to not be seated as tightly as possible, but I can't see how it will definitely cause a brake release. Maybe I (or my packer) always push them in all the way, but I never think about it so I doubt it.

Dave

[tdog 0]

Quote

Well, #1 applies to any risers/toggles. (I assume he meant the tab on the toggle going through the cats eye above the metal ring).

And I don't understand #2. How does having the pin not quite all the way in cause a brake release? I can see that it might cause the top of the toggle to not be seated as tightly as possible, but I can't see how it will definitely cause a brake release. Maybe I (or my packer) always push them in all the way, but I never think about it so I doubt it.

Dave

You are right...
#1 - could happen on any toggle.

#2 - well my rig is packed so no photos... But basically, if the metal pin is not pushed all the way in on the bottom, and the top tab on the toggle is fully inserted into the pocket, the toggle webbing is "tight" and the riser has "slack" because the toggle span becomes shorter than the riser span.

On opening, the riser becomes tight. The pin has more resistance than the toggle tab, so the toggle tab comes out instead of the pin going in.

2 out of 800 jumps for me, on tru-locks...

I determined that as the riser aged and stretched a bit, the little hole the pin inserts into was getting tighter towards the last 1/8th of an inch, and I was not getting full insertion.

By pushing in the pin very hard for a few packjobs, I loosened the slot and it now works fine.

To popsjumper... I have jumped many rigs, ranging from velcro base rigs to all sorts of single and two tabbed toggle systems. I think the Tru-lock is one of the better, if not best, designs out there. I have seen more malfunctions on other systems.

(When it really matters I like Velcro, and so do the manufactures because that is standard on most reserves and base risers, but I would wear Velcro out in a few weekends with how much I use my rig if my main was also Velcro.)

[FlyingBlueJay 0]

#1 - It is possible you put the tab thru the toggle above the metal ring - and caused part of the problem... How is the tape that the toggle tab goes into? Damaged?

#2 - With Tru-locks, you have to push the metal pin in all the way. A slight bit of the metal pin not in all the way will cause a brake fire.

[popsjumper 2]

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...To popsjumper... I have jumped many rigs, ranging from velcro base rigs to all sorts of single and two tabbed toggle systems. I think the Tru-lock is one of the better, if not best, designs out there. I have seen more malfunctions on other systems.

Yes. Given the relative population of "other" vs Tru-Lock systems, I would undoubtedly agree with that. I do, however, respect your experience with many rigs.

Still, for the average canopy, Tru-Locks introduce additional problems if for no other reason than having additional parts and requirements (again, HP canopies are excepted here.)

Personally, (again, for the average canopy) I really don't see a simple premature break release as a malfunction...more of a simple nuisance. Even students can handle that. Introducing additional parts and requirements means a more complicated fix. Really, one-tabbed systems are the minimal, while two tabs introduce a second potential gotchya and Tru-Locks introduce an additional pin to deal with (as indicated by the OP). And therin lies the reasoning. It seems that when things go to shit, it can be much worse with Tru-Locks. True?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tdog 0]

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seems that when things go to shit, it can be much worse with Tru-Locks. True?

I just don't see the difference between the tru-lock and traditional being that significant in terms of parts. Even with a 90 degree bend in the metal pin, this user was able to extract the toggle.

The tru-lock is much superior to Velcro for a main canopy. It is a clean system. I would never use it on a BASE or Reserve canopy as you are right, the extra parts add complication.... Just like a freebag is much safer than a bag connected to the canopy, but we opt for the slight added risk on our main so we don't have to find it after every jump... Sometimes we add a touch of complexity to keep the everyday maintenance (replacing velcro, finding a bag) down.

Another manufacture uses two tabs, both fabric, with the same loops on the back to stow excess lines.

What is the functional difference? Not much.

I can show you the biggest problem I see with MANY manufactures, including the tru-lock system... Basically any system that has captive loops on the back of the risers to push excess line in it can cause a malfunction... See my post:http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2971597;search_string=toggle;#2971597


So, for my personal education.... What specifically do you think makes the tru-lock so much more complicated than, say, any of the competition's two tabbed toggles?