Jumping W/Expired Cypres?

[MagicGuy 0]

Random question that I'm not 100% sure of the answer. Does jumping a rig with an expired Cypres (NOT turned on) break any FAA rules? My Cypres has reached the end of it's 12.5 year lifetime and it's still in my rig. I probably won't jump until after I get the rig re-packed anyways, but it'd be nice to know just in case I head to CT and jump in the freezing cold.

[davelepka 4]

I though it was 12.25 years (12 years + 3 mos.). If that's the case you may have already jumped it expired.

Why wouldn't you turn it on? How lame would it be to go in with it switched off. It's happened before.

I'mnot sure about the answer to your question, but I can't see how a rigger could legally pack a Cypres that will expire before the pack job does.

Maybe they could note the expiration on the card, or maybe they could back date the pack job so it expires when the Cypres does. Either way, you wouldn't have a legal pack job and expired Cypres at the same time.

This is where pencil packing comes in handy. As long as you do it on your own, the rigger is safe as there won't be an entry into his/her logbook to coincide with the signature.

As for the pilot, I'm know the FAA expects him/her to check that rigs are in date. I don't think they expect pilots to A) know the life cycle and legalities of jumping an AAD, or B) to check the AAD DOM on the card and use that info to calculate the age of the AAD.

If the FAA has no such expectation, than the pilot would also be covered as long as your data card indicated the rig was in date.

[mark 107]

Yes, FAR 105.43(c): "If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device."

Mark

[MagicGuy 0]

I wouldn't turn it on because the battery recently died. I don't think my rigger knew that it was going to expire. My container is used and the packing data card still has the other guy's Cypres S/N. The packjob goes out of date in a few days, and the Cypres JUST died. They both expire within days of each other. I was just curious of the FAA regs.

Ohh btw.. I meant 12 years, 3 months. My Cypres was made in September so December is when it dies.

[davelepka 4]

I'm surprised that your battery died in less than two years. Years ago I jumped a Cypres until it wouldn't turn on anymore, and it lasted for over three years.

For your sake, I would hope that your rigger knows everything about your rig, especially what's in it. Any chnages made to the rig should be noted on the data card, or in the case of a used new-to-you rig, you should have started a new card with your name and info, and the correct SNs and DOMs of the reserve and Cypres.

Like I said, I don't know about the regs, but look for a rigger who's a stickler for details. This situation with your Cypres should have been recognized, and dealt with during your last repack, no excuses.

[riggerrob 643]

My container is used and the packing data card still has the other guy's Cypres S/N.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Then you need to find a new rigger.
... a rigger who understands the regulations
... a rigger who pays attention to details.

To be totally legal, he should have written across the old card: "see new card dated 12 June 2006" and stuffed the old card in the correct pocket.
Meanwhile, he should have filled in a new car with your name, address, phone number, harness data, reserve canopy data and the details of your new Cypres and stuffed that card in the same pocket as the old card.

[TowerTopper 0]

Your rigger should always check if the AAD (Cypres) is current... batteries, 4 & 8 year inspections, date of mfg and ect as part of his/her inspection. If the Cypres was still current when it was packed and then it expires before the next repack your ok to still use it till your reserve pack is out of date, that's what the extra 3 months is for. If it was expired when you took it in for your latest repack then it should have been removed from service before it was repacked. You don't have to have an AAD, but if you do it must be current as TSOed, if not, then it must be removed.

[tombuch 0]

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My container is used and the packing data card still has the other guy's Cypres S/N. The packjob goes out of date in a few days, and the Cypres JUST died. They both expire within days of each other. I was just curious of the FAA regs.

The status of the Cypres should be included on the packing data card so that the owner, or anybody else doing a pre-jump inspection will know what that status is. Your rigger should have checked the serial number on that card, especially if it was the first time he saw the rig, or his seal wasn't on it.

But that's not all. The same information should be on the Cypres itself. That should include the date of manufacture, the date of last factory inspection, and the date the battery needs to be replaced. A rigger should always remove the Cypres from the pouch and do a full inspection for damage, including leaking batteries, on every repack. As above, if the rigger didn't pack and seal the rig last time, then the inspection should include every tiny detail like all the numbers on the Cypres, matching all serial numbers, etc.

I wouldn't get too upset at your rigger, but I would point it out. Let him know the Cypres had been changed and wasn't noted on the card, and ask him if he noticed. It's not exactly accusing him of being a slacker-packer, but he should get the hint and improve his inspections on all rigs.

As for legalities, see FAR 105.43(c) which says "If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with the manufacturers instructions for that automatic activation device." So, if the manufacturer says it is out of date, it is out of date, and it isn't legal.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[AMT 0]

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This is where pencil packing comes in handy. As long as you do it on your own, the rigger is safe as there won't be an entry into his/her logbook to coincide with the signature.

I know that this is more then a "rare" practice, but are you seriously advocating this as something that is ok to do, particularly at a place where new impressionable people can read this.

[Rover 11]

I know of a rigger that has a time expired Cypres in his own gear, as no one but him packs his gear so who is going to find out. Bet there are more riggers out there doing the same thing.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[mark 107]

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I know of a rigger that has a time expired Cypres in his own gear, as no one but him packs his gear so who is going to find out. Bet there are more riggers out there doing the same thing.

Your profile says "New Zealand," so the rules might be different there.

In the U.S., the aircraft operator is responsible for compliance with FAA regulations, with "operator" broadly defined to include DZ management as well as the pilot. Anyone who knowingly violates the FARs that way is putting more than himself at risk. What kind of person would do that to his friends?

Mark

[riggerrob 643]

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This is where pencil packing comes in handy. As long as you do it on your own, the rigger is safe as there won't be an entry into his/her logbook to coincide with the signature.

I know that this is more then a "rare" practice, but are you seriously advocating this as something that is ok to do, particularly at a place where new impressionable people can read this.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The major question is whether the rigger's signature appears - on the packing data card - more often than it appears in his rigger's logbook.
Even if the rigger is eventually proved innocent of any forgery, the FAA can still make his life miserable.

Hint: a customer owes me $65 every time my signature appears on his reserve packing data card. If he gives me any lip over my fees, I hand him his reserve and his ripcord separately.

Hint: if you are dishonest enough to "pencil pack" sign as "Elmer Fudd," or "Ronald Reagan" or "Mickey Mouse."

[davelepka 4]

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This is where pencil packing comes in handy. As long as you do it on your own, the rigger is safe as there won't be an entry into his/her logbook to coincide with the signature.

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I know that this is more then a "rare" practice, but are you seriously advocating this as something that is ok to do, particularly at a place where new impressionable people can read this.

I'd rather have him pencil pack it, than slip through the system and get on a plane with an 'illegal' rig.

As long as the paperwork appears to be in order, those responsible for checking such things are covered in case of an incident.

Being safe and being legal are two different things. A shit, rushed pack job is legal if a rigger signs and seals it. A perfect factory-spec pack job without a seal is safe, but not legal in the eyes of the FAA.

[AMT 0]

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This is where pencil packing comes in handy. As long as you do it on your own, the rigger is safe as there won't be an entry into his/her logbook to coincide with the signature.

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I know that this is more then a "rare" practice, but are you seriously advocating this as something that is ok to do, particularly at a place where new impressionable people can read this.

I'd rather have him pencil pack it, than slip through the system and get on a plane with an 'illegal' rig.

As long as the paperwork appears to be in order, those responsible for checking such things are covered in case of an incident.

Being safe and being legal are two different things. A shit, rushed pack job is legal if a rigger signs and seals it. A perfect factory-spec pack job without a seal is safe, but not legal in the eyes of the FAA.

1. Nobody has the right to use a riggers signature but him. If the rigger wants to pencil pack it, thats his business as long as the rig owner knows about it, but its still illegal.

2. If the rigger has the rig in his possession, why not just pack it, what, 45mins-hour, to be sure and not risk his ticket?

3. Do you have to have it that bad that the rigger needs to hurry something that isnt that big of a deal to do right.

4. Safe and legal ARE two different things, but if you strive for professionalism then you end up covering both aspects at once, having to strive for safety is a warning sign.

[peregrinerose 0]

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I'd rather have him pencil pack it, than slip through the system and get on a plane with an 'illegal' rig.

Here's a wild and crazy thought... how about he get a repack done so that he neither pencil packs nor gets in a plane with an expired cypres? Skydiving is not an essential basic need of life like food, water, air. Sitting out a few hours or a weekend in order to get a repack done will not hurt a jumper. A jumper who has an expired cypres should be smart enough to not get themselves in that situation to begin with, it's not like anyone keeps it a secret when the cypres expires
From a pencil packing standpoint... I was asked to do it one time and I gave the jumper a verbal lashing they probably won't forget any time soon. I told the jumper to deal with me taking my time doing the repack (I don't do a ton of rigging work so 3-4 hours is norm for me) or take it elsewhere. If I ever found out that someone I did a repack for had pencil packed their own rig, I wouldn't pack for them again, even if it wasn't my name they signed to it.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[MagicGuy 0]

Guys guys whoa. Just so you ALL know.. I have neither:

A.) Jumped with the expired Cypres

B.) PLAN on jumping with the expired Cypres

C.) Pencil packed my rig or..

D.) You guessed it, PLAN on pencil packing my rig.

I simply asked a question because I didn't know the answer, that is all.

I'm not mad at my rigger. He knew that my other rig, from which the Cypres in question came from, was going to expire and was NOT the rigger to see my new rig first OR transfer the Cypres to this rig. Sure, maybe he should've checked the numbers and whatnot. I always get my rig packed in a hurry, usually a day when I'm jumping because I jump all the time when the season is in session. I have watched him pack my reserve almost every time - he opens the canopy, inspects it, packs the rig and hands it back and usually I'm putting it on my back and getting on the plane.

Yes, at some point I'm sure he could've changed it and HONESTLY, he's the most meticulous and responsible skydiver (and rigger) that I know. He knows that it's expired and wouldn't have packed the rig in the case that the Cypres expired with months left on the repack. The two, literally, expire two days within each other.

[fcajump 164]

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Guys guys whoa. Just so you ALL know.. I have neither:

A.) Jumped with the expired Cypres

B.) PLAN on jumping with the expired Cypres

C.) Pencil packed my rig or..

D.) You guessed it, PLAN on pencil packing my rig.

I simply asked a question because I didn't know the answer, that is all.

I'm not mad at my rigger. He knew that my other rig, from which the Cypres in question came from, was going to expire and was NOT the rigger to see my new rig first OR transfer the Cypres to this rig. Sure, maybe he should've checked the numbers and whatnot. I always get my rig packed in a hurry, usually a day when I'm jumping because I jump all the time when the season is in session. I have watched him pack my reserve almost every time - he opens the canopy, inspects it, packs the rig and hands it back and usually I'm putting it on my back and getting on the plane.

Yes, at some point I'm sure he could've changed it and HONESTLY, he's the most meticulous and responsible skydiver (and rigger) that I know. He knows that it's expired and wouldn't have packed the rig in the case that the Cypres expired with months left on the repack. The two, literally, expire two days within each other.

Ah... but that doesn't mean that we won't each use it as an excuse to spout our own pet thoughts on it, or related concepts...

When I started rigging, I vowed to hold myself to the same standard that I hold my customers... NO PENCIL PACKS. And Yes, I have put the gear away and done other things when I realized that my own reserve was out of date. I have retired two cypres' 1's when they were 12y3mo. Either you bend the rules or you don't.

If your rigger will bend on rush jobs or pencil packs when you are in a hurry, how far will they bend when they're in a hurry and you're not around??

Do I think the regs make it "safe", no... good rigging does that. Is the rig still good at 121days, likely yes (if it was on day 119)... but when do you draw the line...?

Besides... if you own a rig, you should know when:
I&R is due
Cypres (1) battery is due
AAD service is due

I have little sympathy for rush jobs unless there was a (legitimate) reserve deployment or external problem (wet, damage, etc...)

Just my rant, not at the OP, just in general...
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...