Broke 0 #51 March 30, 2006 Quote Jason, I don't mean to sound like I am being disrespectful to anyone in this sport. If you had ever been around me you would know that I used to tell all of my "I's", "if you want to learn something, go jump with a student." I was very open minded about what we did at my DZ and sometimes it caused problems. I was also very big into "high performance landings". That forced me into being very big into high performance landing training. I did the old "walk and talk" with a ton of people too. I don't know, maybe someone learned something, maybe they didn't, but I believed in training, not regulating. The point here is simple, the same as you chose where you jump, the DZO can chose what SOPs his business is going to be run by. If it sinks, it is his fault, if it succeeds it is his benefit. If he saves one life, because he made a rule that maybe you think was harsh, interfering with your rights, well good for him and I am sorry your feelings were hurt by the rule he made. It's all good man. Everyone I have met who has met you have nothing but good things to say about you. Nothing wrong with a little friendly debate. A DZO can set any rule he wants. Will a rule be good or bad for business, well time will tell on that one. Just because a rule exists dosen't mean that it will be followed 100%. Sometimes a blind eye will be turned, and others it will not. Ultimately the only person who is responsible for my safety is myself and no one else. I am a big fan of training. If I have an opertunity to gain training I will take it.Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #52 March 30, 2006 QuoteIf you don't want to wear and AAD, fine, pack your gear bag up and take your $20 and bad attitude somewhere else. What makes you think someone who doesn't want to wear an AAD has a bad attitude? QuoteUnderstand this, it is the Business Owners right to decide what he expects of his customers. If you don't want to do business there, fine, go away, but quit your whining. The DZO is being a smart business man, not a nazi. FYI - There was a lot less whining in Darius11's post than in your's. There are smart and dumb business owners out there, and smart and dumb Customers (capitalization changed for contrast ). DZO's and skydivers fall into both groups. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #53 March 30, 2006 Here is a link to the Official Cypres Saves list. They claim 334 saves since 1991. I did a search on 'unconscious' and found 22 cases where a Cypres saved an unconscious jumper. That's a little over 6.58% of the documented Cypres saves. I didn't run a count, but there are numerous student incidents and a few medical things, but it looks to me like the real killer is a combination of loss of altitude awareness and failure to initiate emergency procedures in a timely way. That bonehead that seems to enjoy terrorizing low-timers with his AAD rhetoric might well have done some good by *highly* recommending an audible altimeter, which costs far less than an AAD and then suggesting thinking about getting an AAD when it fits in the jumper's budget. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #54 March 30, 2006 QuoteThat is rather close minded. Just because I haven't invested more money into the sport dosen't mean that I don't take safety into consideration. *** No it was not close minded. It was a nice way of saying that you do not have enough experience (based on what you have listed) to get into a detailed discussion about hook turn injury/fatality compared to injury/fatality caused by things that are associated with the use of an AAD and the cost of things that are caused by that incidents that an AAD would have prevented. He asked a question and you told him to shush up, that he didn't have enough experience or financial investment to ask that question. I guess you're right..."close-minded" wasn't the correct adjective. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yarpos 4 #55 March 30, 2006 this has been a great thread , lots of good thoughts and discussion (sometimes heated) ...pity it will get blown of the front page of bonfire quite quickly. interested in the OPs comment about overly anal people in Skydiving and BASE. How can you be overly anal in BASE for gods sake? its a one shot deal, its totally personal, its totally unregulated ...just wondering?regards, Steve the older I get...the better I was Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #56 March 31, 2006 Well, it has taken some time, but now I feel right at home here. Edited to add: Some people have opinions and no authority. Fuck 'em. It's just a lot of words. On the other hand, if a DZO decides that his dropzone is going to require AADs, it's his decision. Alone. Unfortunately, having been around for the earliest version of this argument, I can well see why DZOs have become defensive about making this decision, because the rain of shit that falls on them is well nigh a CAT 5 storm. If you don't want to wear an AAD, don't. If your home dz decides it's going to convert, move. It's that easy. rl P.S. I took your name out of the subject line, Dave, because it's not directed at you.If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #57 March 31, 2006 QuoteWell, it has taken some time, but now I feel right at home here. Don't make me pull out the tractor! Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #58 March 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteWell, it has taken some time, but now I feel right at home here. Don't make me pull out the tractor! I miss the tractor. I also edited my post. I have a love/hate relationship with this argument. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, but in the end, it's just kind of stupid, IMO, for the reasons I cited above. Now, can we get back to the tractor? rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #59 March 31, 2006 QuoteAnyone who bitches about DZ policies, find another DZ. There's no DZ around that you are satisfied with? Well, open your own. Sure, but isn't the point that DZOs who require AADs are being irrationally restrictive from both a safety, customer service and economic point of view? Unless the DZO has some special knowledge of the pool of jumpers in the area, the liklihood of someone splatting from no ADD is no different from any other DZ around. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #60 March 31, 2006 QuoteSure, but isn't the point that DZOs who require AADs are being irrationally restrictive from both a safety, customer service and economic point of view? Unless the DZO has some special knowledge of the pool of jumpers in the area, the liklihood of someone splatting from no ADD is no different from any other DZ around. Why don't you talk to one of these DZOs about the fatality that caused them to decide to make AADs mandatory? Not all of them do, for a wide variety of reasons. But if you talk to a DZO who has lived through a fatality that an AAD would have prevented, you might see it differently. I do think jumpers have a right to decide for themselves. But I also think that DZOs have the same right. I don't see any way to make an argument for the former that is more compelling than the argument for the latter. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimemerson 7 #61 March 31, 2006 Don't own one. Don't feel I need one. Skydive anyway. Color me crazy if you want. But I figure if I can't cover my shit maybe I should be shitting. Tommy Piras died because his wasn't on and as a result sales of Cypres went through the roof. His accident put Cypres on the map AND IT WASN'T EVEN ON! Somehow, to me, that sort of reveals the pussy aspect of the sport. Here's an article I wrote a few years ago when I was S&TA at the Ranch. I am convinced Darwin's been cheated. http://theblueskyranch.com/sta/ke11.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #62 March 31, 2006 Quote If it's a money thing...just stick in an AAD that's out of date and swich it off. That would be illegal. You could break the rigger's seal, open the rig, put the AAD in, and close it back up. Note that reserves are MUCH harder to close than mains. In theory the pilot could get his license suspended if you were caught. You might find a rigger willing to violate the FARs to do it. After that his ticket could get yanked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #63 March 31, 2006 QuoteDon't own one. Don't feel I need one. Skydive anyway. Color me crazy if you want. But I figure if I can't cover my shit maybe I should be shitting. Tommy Piras died because his wasn't on and as a result sales of Cypres went through the roof. His accident put Cypres on the map AND IT WASN'T EVEN ON! Somehow, to me, that sort of reveals the pussy aspect of the sport. Here's an article I wrote a few years ago when I was S&TA at the Ranch. I am convinced Darwin's been cheated. http://theblueskyranch.com/sta/ke11.htm I don't think that post can be surpassed in this thread, and I'm absolutely positive the link can't (yes, I fixed it for the clicky-dependent ). That was flat-out fucking awesome! Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #64 March 31, 2006 QuoteQuote If it's a money thing...just stick in an AAD that's out of date and swich it off. That would be illegal. You could break the rigger's seal, open the rig, put the AAD in, and close it back up. Note that reserves are MUCH harder to close than mains. In theory the pilot could get his license suspended if you were caught. You might find a rigger willing to violate the FARs to do it. After that his ticket could get yanked. I'm sure it exists, but I can't remember where, and I'm feeling lazy. Can you (or someone else) remind me what the FARs have to say about AADs in single-harness dual-parachute systems? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #65 March 31, 2006 Quote[R]emind me what the FARs have to say about AADs in single-harness dual-parachute systems FAR 105.43(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #66 March 31, 2006 Quote I don't think that post can be surpassed in this thread, and I'm absolutely positive the link can't (yes, I fixed it for the clicky-dependent ). That was flat-out fucking awesome! Blues, Dave That link is badass!!! There is a great deal of truth in there. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #67 March 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteSure, but isn't the point that DZOs who require AADs are being irrationally restrictive from both a safety, customer service and economic point of view? Unless the DZO has some special knowledge of the pool of jumpers in the area, the liklihood of someone splatting from no ADD is no different from any other DZ around. Why don't you talk to one of these DZOs about the fatality that caused them to decide to make AADs mandatory? Not all of them do, for a wide variety of reasons. But if you talk to a DZO who has lived through a fatality that an AAD would have prevented, you might see it differently. I do think jumpers have a right to decide for themselves. But I also think that DZOs have the same right. I don't see any way to make an argument for the former that is more compelling than the argument for the latter. rl And again, you go back to the arguement about hookturns and then you have to circle back to my prevous post. Think about it (my previous post). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #68 March 31, 2006 QuoteJust as a jumper gets to decide his own level of risk, so does the DZO. He's the one who will suffer economic loss (or not) as the result of his decision. It doesn't matter what a DZO decides to ban at his dropzone--it's his dropzone. Go elsewhere if you don't like it. Just for the record, in my opinion, hook turns (bad landings by people who bit off more than they could chew) are not high performance landings. I'm all for banning hook turns, but the enforcement is usually self-imposed--often permanently. Banning high performance landings by those who are qualified to make them, however, is overkill, IMO, but it's still the DZOs decision. I used my CYPRES for some jumps and turned it off for others. I would not like jumping at a dropzone that requires an AAD, and I never jumped at one that did. OTOH, I wonder how many of the people posting here have had the "opportunity" to spend a lot of time around their DZO in the aftermath of a fatality. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #69 March 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteJust as a jumper gets to decide his own level of risk, so does the DZO. He's the one who will suffer economic loss (or not) as the result of his decision. It doesn't matter what a DZO decides to ban at his dropzone--it's his dropzone. Go elsewhere if you don't like it. l Of course it is his decision - I never said the contrary, but it still remains that it is possibly an irrational choice base on historical fatalities/injuries. Don't we all try to point out fault reasoning to our boss, colleagues or business partners? Yes, they may still have to authority to stick with decisions or opinions that may not be the wisest - and possibly suffer consequences as well (e.g. regulatory violations/missed revenue opportunities/whatever). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RkyMtnHigh 0 #70 March 31, 2006 I made it into Parachutist this month..p 17..my one sec of fame I suppose. .....just wanted to break things up in here that's all... _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #71 March 31, 2006 QuoteI made it into Parachutist this month..p 17..my one sec of fame I suppose. .....just wanted to break things up in here that's all... When mine actually arrives, I'll be all over that pretty face. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dolph 0 #72 March 31, 2006 That's one well written article. Thanks for sharing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #73 March 31, 2006 QuoteOK here is a quick question... what is safer operaiting a DZ that allows jumpers not to have a AAD or operaiting a DZ that allows hook turns? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get more experience than 25 jumps and more money invested in the sport than whatever it is that you have and then I will consider that a valid question OK how about from me with 3800 jumps and 15 years in the sport? Like it or not, the fact is that you would save more lives and call the ambulance out to the DZ A LOT less if you banned hook turns instead of making people wear AAD's. QuoteYou see, it is not an issue of hook turns vs AADs it is whether on not a DZO (O stands for Owner) to decide what the SOPs are going to be at HIS/HER DZ. If they chose to say yellow jump suits only, it is fine, because it is their decision. If you don't want to wear yellow, fine, take your red jump suit somewhere else. And I AGREE that the DZO has that right and that the customer has the right to walk away and jump somewhere else. I ALSO think that device dependancy is bad, and making everyoine have an AAD would do nothing but encourage that. SO, while I agree that DZO's have the right to do as they damn well please....I also think that if they REALLY wanted to keep out of trouble, they would ban Hook turns before they required AAD's."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #74 March 31, 2006 Who cares? Sure it sucks, but if you want to start telling people how to run their businesses, start your own. Tried looking at it from a DZO perspective? Maybe they think if they make such a rule they won't be needing to scrape up another body this year. Maybe it keeps all the types they really don't want at their DZ away.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #75 March 31, 2006 That was one of the best written things I have seen in some time....And I agree 100% Technique first, not toys."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Elisha 1 #69 March 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteJust as a jumper gets to decide his own level of risk, so does the DZO. He's the one who will suffer economic loss (or not) as the result of his decision. It doesn't matter what a DZO decides to ban at his dropzone--it's his dropzone. Go elsewhere if you don't like it. l Of course it is his decision - I never said the contrary, but it still remains that it is possibly an irrational choice base on historical fatalities/injuries. Don't we all try to point out fault reasoning to our boss, colleagues or business partners? Yes, they may still have to authority to stick with decisions or opinions that may not be the wisest - and possibly suffer consequences as well (e.g. regulatory violations/missed revenue opportunities/whatever). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RkyMtnHigh 0 #70 March 31, 2006 I made it into Parachutist this month..p 17..my one sec of fame I suppose. .....just wanted to break things up in here that's all... _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #71 March 31, 2006 QuoteI made it into Parachutist this month..p 17..my one sec of fame I suppose. .....just wanted to break things up in here that's all... When mine actually arrives, I'll be all over that pretty face. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dolph 0 #72 March 31, 2006 That's one well written article. Thanks for sharing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #73 March 31, 2006 QuoteOK here is a quick question... what is safer operaiting a DZ that allows jumpers not to have a AAD or operaiting a DZ that allows hook turns? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get more experience than 25 jumps and more money invested in the sport than whatever it is that you have and then I will consider that a valid question OK how about from me with 3800 jumps and 15 years in the sport? Like it or not, the fact is that you would save more lives and call the ambulance out to the DZ A LOT less if you banned hook turns instead of making people wear AAD's. QuoteYou see, it is not an issue of hook turns vs AADs it is whether on not a DZO (O stands for Owner) to decide what the SOPs are going to be at HIS/HER DZ. If they chose to say yellow jump suits only, it is fine, because it is their decision. If you don't want to wear yellow, fine, take your red jump suit somewhere else. And I AGREE that the DZO has that right and that the customer has the right to walk away and jump somewhere else. I ALSO think that device dependancy is bad, and making everyoine have an AAD would do nothing but encourage that. SO, while I agree that DZO's have the right to do as they damn well please....I also think that if they REALLY wanted to keep out of trouble, they would ban Hook turns before they required AAD's."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #74 March 31, 2006 Who cares? Sure it sucks, but if you want to start telling people how to run their businesses, start your own. Tried looking at it from a DZO perspective? Maybe they think if they make such a rule they won't be needing to scrape up another body this year. Maybe it keeps all the types they really don't want at their DZ away.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #75 March 31, 2006 That was one of the best written things I have seen in some time....And I agree 100% Technique first, not toys."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
RkyMtnHigh 0 #70 March 31, 2006 I made it into Parachutist this month..p 17..my one sec of fame I suppose. .....just wanted to break things up in here that's all... _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #71 March 31, 2006 QuoteI made it into Parachutist this month..p 17..my one sec of fame I suppose. .....just wanted to break things up in here that's all... When mine actually arrives, I'll be all over that pretty face. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dolph 0 #72 March 31, 2006 That's one well written article. Thanks for sharing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #73 March 31, 2006 QuoteOK here is a quick question... what is safer operaiting a DZ that allows jumpers not to have a AAD or operaiting a DZ that allows hook turns? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get more experience than 25 jumps and more money invested in the sport than whatever it is that you have and then I will consider that a valid question OK how about from me with 3800 jumps and 15 years in the sport? Like it or not, the fact is that you would save more lives and call the ambulance out to the DZ A LOT less if you banned hook turns instead of making people wear AAD's. QuoteYou see, it is not an issue of hook turns vs AADs it is whether on not a DZO (O stands for Owner) to decide what the SOPs are going to be at HIS/HER DZ. If they chose to say yellow jump suits only, it is fine, because it is their decision. If you don't want to wear yellow, fine, take your red jump suit somewhere else. And I AGREE that the DZO has that right and that the customer has the right to walk away and jump somewhere else. I ALSO think that device dependancy is bad, and making everyoine have an AAD would do nothing but encourage that. SO, while I agree that DZO's have the right to do as they damn well please....I also think that if they REALLY wanted to keep out of trouble, they would ban Hook turns before they required AAD's."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #74 March 31, 2006 Who cares? Sure it sucks, but if you want to start telling people how to run their businesses, start your own. Tried looking at it from a DZO perspective? Maybe they think if they make such a rule they won't be needing to scrape up another body this year. Maybe it keeps all the types they really don't want at their DZ away.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #75 March 31, 2006 That was one of the best written things I have seen in some time....And I agree 100% Technique first, not toys."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
