Are you over your TSO (max suspended weight)

[Anvilbrother 0]

What I understand is TSO C23c is max #254, and TSO C23d is #245 with the MFG option to go higher typically #300. So are you over that limit with your out the door weight(gear, helmet, shoes, suit, camera, ect.?

Thanks for the answers

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[diablopilot 2]

Nope. I am over max recommended on my PDR126 however.

Remember, TSO, and max recommended weights are different in many cases.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Nope. I am over max recommended on my PDR126 however.

Remember, TSO, and max recommended weights are different in many cases.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Under most of the TSOs, manufacturers have to prove that their reserve will survive opening shock with 254 pounds or more.
However, no-one believes that a 254 pound skydiver's ankles will survive landing a tiny reserves (i.e. PR97) so they "derate" reserves to get rate of descent below 17 feet per second.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

However, no-one believes that a 254 pound skydiver's ankles will survive landing a tiny reserves (i.e. PR97) so they "derate" reserves to get rate of descent below 17 feet per second.

I don't think that landing with a pilot's bail-out rig would be better. Its still a life saving device if you get yourself down without injury thats a plus.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Quote

Nope. I am over max recommended on my PDR126 however.

Remember, TSO, and max recommended weights are different in many cases.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Under most of the TSOs, manufacturers have to prove that their reserve will survive opening shock with 254 pounds or more.
However, no-one believes that a 254 pound skydiver's ankles will survive landing a tiny reserves (i.e. PR97) so they "derate" reserves to get rate of descent below 17 feet per second.

Unfortunately I've met someone who used to be in the gear business that sold people reserves based on the TSO'd max. Suggested that a PDR99 would be fine for someone like me.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[JohanW 0]

I read the question wrong and voted too quickly.

One yes should read no, I am not overweight. (At least my gear thinks so.
I am way over the recommended max on my main of course.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[davelepka 4]

So far 15 people have admitted they are outside of the TSO on their gear. Of course none of them posted a comment, and identified themselves.

I'd like to ask those 15, how many of you are freeflyers? Or even freefly occasionally?

Part of the TSO is based on speed, and big guys freeflying will easily top those speeds, so not only are they overloading the gear, they are overspeeding it as well.

Even though I know it's not an apples to apples comaprison, it's surprising how many people think nothing about overloading their gear, however they will be up in arms if an aircraft is overlaoded or pushed beyond VNE.

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Quote

However, no-one believes that a 254 pound skydiver's ankles will survive landing a tiny reserves (i.e. PR97) so they "derate" reserves to get rate of descent below 17 feet per second.

I don't think that landing with a pilot's bail-out rig would be better. Its still a life saving device if you get yourself down without injury thats a plus.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I cannot remember where I got the number "17 feet per second."

According to "TSO C23B (published 8-24-49), sub-section 4.3.8 Rate of Descent Test: ... 170 pond man. The average rate of descent shall not exceed 21 feet per second ..."

Note that was published in 1949, when flat, circular, non-steerable, non-diapered, round parachutes were the norm - long before square canopies were invented. Military statistics showed that rates of descent exceeding 21 feet per second were likely to break ankles.

"Society of Automotive Engineers, Aeronautical Standard 8015, revision B published 7-7-92 (which is the basis for the current TSO C23D), sub-section 4.3.7 Rate of Descent Tests ... dummy ... weighing not less than the maximum operating weght. The average rate of descent shall not exceed 24 feet per second (7.3 m/s)."

[billvon 2,989]

>so not only are they overloading the gear, they are overspeeding it as well.

I would also add that a great many people use their gear far past its usual retirement age. MLW's with one or more broken yarns, risers with 2000 jumps on them, trim tape with broken stitching, legstrap hardware so worn that the webbing slips easily - combine those with an overspeed, overweight opening and things could get ugly.

[Unstable 9]

Quote

I would also add that a great many people use their gear far past its usual retirement age. MLW's with one or more broken yarns, risers with 2000 jumps on them, trim tape with broken stitching, legstrap hardware so worn that the webbing slips easily - combine those with an overspeed, overweight opening and things could get ugly.

I agree. Then they post their old gutter gear on DZ.com, then a newly licensed skydiver, without consulting a Rigger or knowledgeable instructor, show up, "HEY!! Look at my new rig!! It was a killer deal!!"

That's happened twice in the last 4 months and twice I've turned their business away....

=========Shaun ==========

[verticalflyer 11]

Quote

So far 15 people have admitted they are outside of the TSO on their gear. Of course none of them posted a comment, and identified themselves.

I'd like to ask those 15, how many of you are freeflyers? Or even freefly occasionally?

Part of the TSO is based on speed, and big guys freeflying will easily top those speeds, so not only are they overloading the gear, they are overspeeding it as well.

Even though I know it's not an apples to apples comaprison, it's surprising how many people think nothing about overloading their gear, however they will be up in arms if an aircraft is overlaoded or pushed beyond VNE.

And how many of those people have genuinely asked themselves is it worth overloading my main or reserve with the risk of a premature whilst freeflying?

It's easy to be blaise about this stuff but even a single size up can make or difference that might just save your life. the margins we use in all in flight testing are there to allow us some buffet before we come of the rails why put yourself by the rails from the outset?

Dont just talk about it, Do it!

[AggieDave 6]

Some of it is purely an unavailability of gear. Have you ever tried to find a rig with a 300sq ft reserve that has the higher TSOed weight on the rig and would still fit a Velo 111? Hell, its hard to find a rig that fits that main with a PDr176 in it. More then a few people have told me I should downsize my reserve to make gear choices easier. Go to something in the 143sq ft range for the reserve. No thanks. Its the fatboy swooper paradox.

Could I land a PDr143 safely? Sure. Do I want to? Not really. Why overload further past what I already do?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[gearless_chris 1]

I'm overweight on my reserve (Rmax 168), not sure about my main(Comp Cobalt 150) because I can't find a max loading spec. without un packing it. Atair says up to 3.6:1 which would be 540lbs, I'm under that. If I could get a bigger reserve I would have. UPT only lists the spacer foam and magnetic riser covers on containers up to the V347 which is what I got because it fits my main also. Maybe someone will make a low pack volume reserve for us fat guys too someday.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[AggieDave 6]

I'm hoping PD does get around to making some fatboy Optimas, that would be very nice. I wouldn't mind upsizing my reserve or having a better fitting container for my main.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,989]

>Have you ever tried to find a rig with a 300sq ft reserve that has the
>higher TSOed weight on the rig and would still fit a Velo 111?

How about a Talon T7 (550/650 cu in) an Eagle 300 reserve and main container padding? I did that for several years with my Swift so I could safely put a PD190 in it (sized for a Pursuit 230.) Worked fine.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Quote

So far 15 people have admitted they are outside of the TSO on their gear. Of course none of them posted a comment, and identified themselves.

I'd like to ask those 15, how many of you are freeflyers? Or even freefly occasionally?

Part of the TSO is based on speed, and big guys freeflying will easily top those speeds, so not only are they overloading the gear, they are overspeeding it as well.

Even though I know it's not an apples to apples comaprison, it's surprising how many people think nothing about overloading their gear, however they will be up in arms if an aircraft is overlaoded or pushed beyond VNE.

And how many of those people have genuinely asked themselves is it worth overloading my main or reserve with the risk of a premature whilst freeflying?

It's easy to be blaise about this stuff but even a single size up can make or difference that might just save your life. the margins we use in all in flight testing are there to allow us some buffet before we come of the rails why put yourself by the rails from the outset?

From purely a devil's advocate point of view, a smaller canopy has a better chance to survive a high speed opening. Conversely when you blow up a reserve, it's probably better to have more fabric overhead.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,989]

>From purely a devil's advocate point of view, a smaller canopy has a
>better chance of survive a high speed opening.

Why do you think that?

[diablopilot 2]

Professional and personal experience.
Assuming the same design of canopy, the smaller canopy has a smaller surface area, and thus imparts less of an initial "snatch" load.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Exactly why I posted this thread. I wanted to see if there was a market for a higher TSOd gear, and possibly show the Container and Canopy makers. I know there are high costs involved with R&D, and getting a TSO, but maybe.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[lonelymoose 0]

Quote

From purely a devil's advocate point of view, a smaller canopy has a better chance to survive a high speed opening. Conversely when you blow up a reserve, it's probably better to have more fabric overhead.

Not if it is tested and TSO'd for those high speed openings, whether it is large or small. I think the intention of this thread is to make us think about what our canopies are rated for, weight and speed. If we pick a canopy TSO'd for our weight and the speed we fly, and keep it in good shape, then we should be fairly safe...in a perfect world...

[diablopilot 2]

What sport reserve do you know of that is tested and certified to 180mph, in a tumbling, non symmetrical loaded configuration?


Having a larger reserve is rarely a bad idea.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[TonyJ 0]

another question, do you jump with mini rings and type 17 risers? im slightly over, i jump type 8 and large rings...tony

[Anvilbrother 0]

Type 8 and large rings only, but my rig was built for 360lbs max weight at 174 knots

It also weights 47 lbs with the aad installed so it is a box of bricks on your back.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Cloudi 0]

They're working on it.

Remember - the smaller, low bulk reserves took a few years to complete (to the manufacturer's satisfaction) and be approved. Those sizes were "easy" compared to the larger sizes and is a small part in why the smaller sizes came out first.

R&D is expensive and time consuming. They know there's a demand and are busting their humps to make it available, but they won't rush to put something out there before it's ready just because people want it. Ever.

Until then, deal with what is available and have appropriate gear for your exit weight and discipline. A heavy rig won't feel that heavy when you're in the shit.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[moto89 0]

I'm 135 soaking wet and at my altitude I am technically over TSO on my Raven Dash M 135.

Less talking, more flying.