anybody have experience with ADD kids?

[Nightingale 0]

I had several students who were diagnosed ADD/ADHD when I was teaching karate. The interesting thing is that they were ADD when they walked in from the parking lot, and ADD when they walked out, but they were not ADD in my class. I think that's partially because karate classes are run with very strict rules and immediate consequences for breaking the rules (rules need to be followed in contact sports, or someone can get hurt badly). The kids knew what was expected of them, and they knew what would happen if they didn't follow the rules. After about two weeks of getting used to it, they became some of the most attentive students I taught.

Don't get me wrong, I believe ADD does exist. However, it is also extremely overdiagnosed, mainly because it enables people to use medication instead of discipline to control children. I saw it as a karate teacher, and I saw it as a school teacher. In the school where I was teaching, we had about four hundred students. One out of four was on ADD drugs. I'm sorry, but 25% of children is WAY too high a percentage (according to CHADD.org, average is 3-7%). The interesting thing was, that many of these students came from homes where either both parents worked long hours and the kids were left with a sitter, or the parents didn't provide structure, rules, and consequences for their children, and consequently, the children never learned self-control.

ADD does exist, and for those who really have it, it can be a major problem. One of my students who really needed the medication said "when I don't take the medicine, life is sorta like watching tv when the cat's sitting on the remote. the channels keep switching too fast to follow what's going on. I get a little bit of everything, but can't concentrate on something long enough to figure it out." ADD can have a real impact on a student's grades, because they can't focus long enough to grasp a concept, and, because they get bored and frustrated due to a lack of understanding, they can become a behavior problem. www.chadd.org can be a great resource for parents/family/teachers of children with ADD.


edited to add: I used my karate students as an example, because they were the most striking difference between home and school, but most of the teachers at the school I was teaching at agreed that many kids were not ADD or hyperactive in our classrooms, just a bit energetic, but the parents considered them ADD.

[AlexCrowley 0]

There is of course the fact that your karate class offers stimulation and physical movement. Both effectively negate ADD symptoms. ADD isnt hyperactivity, it's being unable to efficiently control your internal focusing mechanism. (read: unable to focus on boring stuff)

it is UNCONTROLLABLE attention in low stimulation environments. The current testable theory is that there's a dopamine imbalance that causes neurons to fire at receptors in a way that's out of sync, which is why taking reuptake inhibitors seems to have a positive effect on many people who suffer ADD.

First people should try to understand what ADD is and what it definitely is not.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Nightingale 0]

Well, first off, I said that ADD exists. Most experts agree that it's overdiagnosed. "Three types of children are labeled with ADD. Some truly have a neurobiological quirk, causing them to think, act and learn differently. This is true ADD. A second group of children have what I call "situational ADD," a problem in their environment or a mismatch between child and school that needs to be corrected. A third group doesn't have ADD at all. They are just bright, energetic, creative children who act and learn differently." http://childrentoday.com/resources/articles/addp1.htm

A study was done tracking students who were diagnosed ADD. The students were divided into three groups. The first exhibited ADD symptoms at school and at home (pervasive ADD). The second exhibited ADD symptoms only at school (Situational School ADD: teachers felt student was ADD/ADHD, parents disagreed), and home only ADD (opposite of school only ADD). The students were followed for several years. "At follow-up, a higher rate of ADD was found in the Pervasive than in the School Only ADHD probands (37 vs. 13%) but it did not reach significance. School Only and Home Only ADHD groups did not differ in prevalence of ADD (13 vs. 7%, respectively), with neither group being differentiated from the normal comparisons (3%). In contrast, the prevalence of ongoing ADD was significantly higher among the Pervasive ADHD group than the Home Only group (37 vs. 7%)... Based on the Isle of Wight data, Schachar et al. (1981) found that, among hyperactive 10- 11-year-olds who were reevaluated at ages 14-15, 88% were situational, and only 12% pervasive...It would appear that a diagnosis of ADHD should not be ruled out in cases where teachers report behaviors consistent with the diagnosis but parents do not. At the same time, parent reports of ADHD that are not corroborated by teacher reports are unlikely to represent the same disorder." http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0902/is_2_30/ai_85500252/pg_2 Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology


Karate isn't always a high stimulation environment. There's a lot of theory and discussion time as well, at least in many kenpo classes. You talk about what techniques you would use when and why, analyze what works best and why, and learn katas (which tends to bore kids out of their skulls; they'd much rather be sparring). Kids only learn one or two techniques a class, and spend time practicing them repeatedly. A karate school isn't always a fast paced, physical envronment. Students were even required to read Ed Parker's books and write book reports.

There also seems to be a strong connection between a child beginning martial arts training and their grades improving. It seems that if kids can learn self discipline in a fun environment, it can transfer into less fun environments such as education.

[lawrocket 3]

I've spent my whole life with myself, and I therefore have a pretty good idea of the implications of ADHD. I managed to go off of it t age 18, and finished college and law school without the need for medication or treatment. Only n the last year and a half has the need for medicinal intervention been noted.

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t is also extremely overdiagnosed, mainly because it enables people to use medication instead of discipline to control children.

That's like saying that birth control pills are overprescribed, because it enables people to use medication instead of discipline to avoid pregnancy."

I believe that it IS overdiagnosed. I think that there are more people with ADD/ADHD than people realize, ut there are less people with ADD/ADHD than people think.

For people like me, there is a constant carnival going on in my head. I tend to get separated from tasks. Menial tasks do not interest me. Preparing briefs and case workup DOES interest me. I'm a great legal mind and a lousy administrator.

When I was dx'd with ADHD, I was 7 years old. That was in 1980. I went through a full neurological exam, testing, and even an EEG, CAT scan and lumbar puncture to make sure there wasn't anythign else going on.

Part of the issue with the medications are that each has a different effect on different people. Straterra was a miracle drug for most. For me I figured it was what chemotherapy felt like. Adderal has complications for many. For me it was a loss of appetite, and a feeling like the carnival in my head was closed for business.

Keep in mind that kids will be kids. Kids are energetic and curious. And ADHD has been over-diagnosed. There's a weird thing about ADHD people - we can sniff each other out pretty well. Sometimes I'll come across people that say they have ADD or ADHD. It's like coming across a person who claims to be a skydiver.

To jumper03, I would advise you to be patient. Dont' expect them to act like someone who isn't ADD or ADHD. To help them with it, let them have a motor skill to use. They'll pay attention better if they can keep one or both hands busy, i.e., let them have those stress balls to squeeze. It aided with my concetration.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Nightingale 0]

There are probably many people who have ADD who are undiagnosed, but, as the studies above indicate, many times when parents think their kids are ADD, they may not be.

[AlexCrowley 0]

Thats generally because parents are stupid. That's why they have special people called 'doctors'.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Nightingale 0]

Unfortunately, there are many cases where a doctor has heard a parent's frustrated anecdotes and seen the kid for five minutes, writes out a prescription, and that's the end of it. Diagnosing ADD is a complicated process.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Ive not heard of that as being a common thing. It took my sons diagnosis almost 2 months just with tests and thearpy. I also found that its more educators that press the ADHD card, most parents I know do not like that their child is on such a medication.

In addition, the childrens lives are often truely turned around depending on the severity of the problem with medication, and it is USUALLY turned around in a good way.

Diagnosing ADHD isnt complicated though. It can be a simple behavior check list, and as far as I know a doctor must get the list from both the teacher and the parent checked off. In my case and because of how our doc does things the tests were to rule out other issues that often mask ADHD.

The ADD and ADHD medicines are a narcotic, they are speed. If a child is on speed yet it helps him to focus and concentrate and helps him to stop bouncing off the walls at school then it is also a sign to the doctor that he has the medical condition. One of the first things before my son was put on it and when his med was changed, I was told by the doctor to take one and see how it reacts to me. It was such a drastic difference between what it did to me and what it does for my son.

I think the generalzations on this thread are common mis-conceptions in regards to a child with a genetic problem, Its often "I know someone whose sisters son is on ...." etc.

If a doctor gives a child a narcotic within 5 mins of meeting the kid and talking about the life long issues that surronds the childs life then to me, that would be a doctor I wouldnt want around my kid or myself therefore bringing up ethic and moral issues.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[AlexCrowley 0]

I'm not sure what you've been reading but it doesnt actually seem to match the majority of the information available from unbiased sources. With that I'll let myself out.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Nightingale 0]

I linked my sources.

[Nightingale 0]

"Effective treatment depends on appropriate diagnosis of ADHD. A comprehensive medical evaluation of the child must be conducted to establish a correct diagnosis of ADHD and to rule out other potential causes of the symptoms. ADHD can be reliably diagnosed when appropriate guidelines are used. Ideally, a health care practitioner making a diagnosis should include input from both parents and teachers. But some health practitioners diagnose ADHD without all this information and tend to either overdiagnose the disorder or underdiagnose it."
-National institute of Mental Health
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/helpchild.cfm

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Heres some things taken from your source...

Its the educators on avg who see the ADHD as I stated earlier ...

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ADD is usually detected in children upon school entry, or between 5 and 6 years of age. This is because while the child is at home, parents are more accepting of a wide range of behavior in their child and the child is not required to conform to such a structured way of learning. When the child enters school, the child is required to conform and teachers are not as accepting of behaviors that don't conform to their perception of what is normal.

There are three types, when you stated your information you only used ONE type as an example

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Three types of children are labeled with ADD. Some truly have a neurobiological quirk, causing them to think, act and learn differently. This is true ADD. A second group of children have what I call "situational ADD," a problem in their environment or a mismatch between child and school that needs to be corrected. A third group doesn't have ADD at all. They are just bright, energetic, creative children who act and learn differently. These children are exhausting to parents, challenging for teachers and just plain inconvenient, especially for a school system that rewards sameness and undervalues difference

Signs of ADHD, would you want to live this way? When there is medicine and other modifications that can change it all.

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Making careless mistakes in schoolwork
Difficulty sustaining attention to tasks
Not listening to what is being said
Difficulty organizing tasks and activities
Losing and misplacing belongings
Fidgeting and squirming in seat
Talking excessively
Interrupting or intruding on others
Difficulty playing quietly

Well known doctor who gives an answer to a parent who feels it is their fault and is often blamed by other parents as not creating a home with discipline and routine.

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PARKER: Parents have been blamed for years for the problem of inattention, distractibility, impulsively, and difficulties with the behavior, in kids with Attention Deficit Disorder. We know it's not their fault.

More transcript of meds success rate between the doctor and the child. This is in regards to ritilin.

PARKER: Medicine for children with A.D.D. works about 75% of the time.
MERROW: Works in what way?

PARKER: Well it reduces symptoms tremendously.

MERROW: What does that mean?

PARKER: Kids, well they behave better, number one. But also kids who can't finish their work in school finish their work in school. Kids who forget to bring their homework back to school do their homework at home and then return it to school. Kids who could never organize well, and their desk would look a mess, if properly medicated, they tend to be able to do better with their organizational skills.

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Two doctors express part of the process of diagnosing....

PARKER: I would say out of most of the mental disorders, or practically almost all the mental disorders that we have listed and that we can identify, A.D.D. can be identified in the most objective manner. We have a lot of different rating scales that can be utilized to measure Attention Deficit Disorder symptoms. We have a lot of different clinical interview techniques that we utilize to identify individuals who show characteristics of A.D.D. as well as family characterisitics. We have a lot of data about developmental histories of these children and what a typical child with A.D.D. is like in growing up and through-out the course of their development. We have well established methods of direct observation to identify these children in the classroom. Very objective data.

DR. BREGGIN: If you look at the diagnosis that's been promoted by the American Psychiatric Association, becomes clear why any doctor might feel reasonable about giving medication to a child, a child who one, often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat, I mean I personally get that a lot, I'm a very high-energy person, very hard for me to sit still here, fact you didn't want me to sit in a chair that would wiggle back and forth because you know that nervous adults will wiggle back and forth in their chairs, and that's number one under hyperactivity, number two is often leaves seat in classroom or in other situations in which remaining seated is expected. And then the third one, often runs about or climbs excessively. And if he's an adolescent he may just feel like doing it without doing it. These are the three criteria that are considered the most powerful, and what do they represent? They represent a kid who'd rather be doing something else.

***

The most important thing someone can remember about educating themselves on this disorder is that CHADD has been giving both parents and educators MIS-leading information regarding ADHD and ADD.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Nightingale 0]

My post #28 stated the same quote you supplied. That there are three types of kids that get diagnosed, and only one type is truly ADD.

Problems with diagnosis happen, and many times HMOs won't cover the extended testing required to rule out other causes.

This is from the National Institutes of Health
Consensus Development Conference Statement :

"Primary care and developmental pediatricians, family practitioners, (child) neurologists, psychologists, and psychiatrists are the providers responsible for assessment, diagnosis, and treatment of most children with ADHD. There is wide variation among types of practitioners with respect to frequency of diagnosis of ADHD. Data indicate that family practitioners diagnose more quickly and prescribe medication more frequently than psychiatrists or pediatricians. This may be due in part to the limited time spent making the diagnosis. Some practitioners invalidly use response to medication as a diagnostic criterion, and primary care practitioners are less likely to recognize comorbid (coexisting) disorde rs. The quickness with which some practitioners prescribe medications may decrease the likelihood that more educationally relevant interventions will be sought."

http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/add/nimh/diagnosis_treatment_2.htm

[Johnsisland 0]

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kids that take drugs like Ritalin are close to 10 times more likely to use drugs later in life.

Is this information backed up by research? I tend to belive, based on what I have read, that medicating AD/HD people causes lower drug abuse. I don't have any links off the top of my head, so...

I have heard that if someone with AD/HD isn't medicated, and tries to cure there racing mind, speed is one way to self medicate.

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and drug use makes other things more likely to,
a good example is Kurt Cobain, he was on Ritalin as a kid, but then he found heroin served him a little better.

Yes, some people with AD/HD will abuse drugs. Question is what percentage, and is the outcome better with Tx, or without?

JJ

Arch? I can arch just fine with my back to the ground.

[grue 1]

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I have heard that if someone with AD/HD isn't medicated, and tries to cure there racing mind, speed is one way to self medicate.

Speed = Amphetamine = Adderall, they're all literally the same thing.

Ritalin/Concerta/Methylphenidate, another chemical treatment, are differnet though.

cavete terrae.

[marks 0]

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Ritalin/Concerta/Methylphenidate

those are forms of amphetamine's also.

[grue 1]

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Ritalin/Concerta/Methylphenidate

those are forms of amphetamine's also.

Similar, but different compounds, however, with different effects resulting. It's not actual amphetamine.

cavete terrae.

[AlexCrowley 0]

Adderall == amphetamine salts.

Ritalin == methylphenidate.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[marks 0]

from dictionary.com
----------------------------------------------
"Methylphenidate"


"A drug, C14H19NO2, chemically related to amphetamine"

[grue 1]

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Adderall == amphetamine salts.

Ritalin == methylphenidate.

Like I said :)

cavete terrae.

[grue 1]

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from dictionary.com
----------------------------------------------
"Methylphenidate"


"A drug, C14H19NO2, chemically related to amphetamine"

I'm related to my brother, but we are not the same. We are, however, similar.

cavete terrae.

[skymama 37]

Everyone, please take the debate concerning ADHD and medication to a thread in Speaker's Corner. Jumper03 did not ask about the medication, he asked if anyone had experience with ADD kids. Please only post to this thread if you have something constructive to add about the subject matter or just send him a pm as he asked.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[marks 0]

at least we didnt drift into having sex with monkeys.

its all related...

concerta is a way to deal with add/adhd kids.

ritilin/concerta are a way to deal with adhd kids without having the super strong effects of amphetamines. the class of drug works but isn't as potent.

[skymama 37]

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concerta is a way to deal with add/adhd kids.

I know, my daughter takes it.

Jumper03 is a teacher, not a parent so he wouldn't be the one to decide to put the child in question on medication. He's looking for advice on how to help a child learn who has ADD.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[marks 0]

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He's looking for advice on how to help a child learn who has ADD.

give them concerta!