filioque 0 #1 February 11, 2008 Hi, I was just wondering, if you could design any parachute you wanted? What would it be like? How about a Zero-P, "7 cell", tapered, semi cross braced (a la neos), student canopy that any Skydiver could enjoy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #2 February 11, 2008 Don't need to. PD already makes the perfect canopy for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #3 February 11, 2008 It'd land like a sabre2, open like an optimum reserve, pack like a worn out 7-cell F111. And cost under $1000. I'll take two. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrEaK_aCcIdEnT 0 #4 February 11, 2008 Quote It'd land like a sabre2, open like an optimum reserve, pack like a worn out 7-cell F111. And cost under $1000. I'll take two. Dave I like this canopy already! ExPeCt ThE uNeXpEcTeD! DoNt MiNd ThE tYpOs, Im LaZy On CoRrEcTiOnS! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #5 February 11, 2008 Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, the optimum reserve comes pretty close to what I'd want. Hey PD, howsabout an Optimum Main? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RB_Hammer 0 #6 February 11, 2008 Just jump an optimum as a main..."I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late." Mathew Quigley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #7 February 11, 2008 QuoteHow about a Zero-P, "7 cell", tapered, semi cross braced (a la neos), student canopy that any Skydiver could enjoy? Notice that every canopy is a compromise. What is a swiss army knife good for? We need the right tool for the purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,497 #8 February 11, 2008 QuoteHi, I was just wondering, if you could design any parachute you wanted? What would it be like? How about a Zero-P, "7 cell", tapered, semi cross braced (a la neos), student canopy that any Skydiver could enjoy? I don't really see what the point of that canopy would be? Why would you want to compromise an HP canopy to make it suitable for students, or put students under a canopy that is also intended to be HP? It's not like the student or very low experience jumper is going to want to keep that first canopy all through their skydiving career because they'll eventually want to go much smaller anyway.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #9 February 11, 2008 Quote Just jump an optimum as a main... If it had slightly better performance, a bridle attachment point, a known lifespan (when used as a main), and came in more colors, I probably would. It's close, but not quite it for me as a main. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
980 0 #10 February 12, 2008 I have a canopy that: QuoteIt'd land like a sabre2, lands better Quoteopen like an optimum reserve opens better Quotepack like a worn out 7-cell F111. yup - because it's got 1500 jumps on it QuoteAnd cost under $1000. yours for $500 - because it's got 1500 jumps on it QuoteI'll take two. I only have one, but it is for sale! it's a Xaos-21 (100 sq.ft.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #11 February 12, 2008 Jump Shack claims that their Firebolt canopy will do all that, just with different sizes for different experience levels. I have only jumped the Firebolt 396, but liked it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
P-dro 0 #12 February 12, 2008 PD is about to release a new 7 cell elliptical canopy that should (according to people who tried it) please a lot of people... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
filioque 0 #13 February 13, 2008 QuoteI have a canopy that: QuoteIt'd land like a sabre2, lands better Quoteopen like an optimum reserve opens better Quotepack like a worn out 7-cell F111. yup - because it's got 1500 jumps on it QuoteAnd cost under $1000. yours for $500 - because it's got 1500 jumps on it QuoteI'll take two. I only have one, but it is for sale! it's a Xaos-21 (100 sq.ft.)QuoteThis is exactly what I am talking about.Make a canopy model, call it the Acme for name sake. One plan form, i.e. smei elliptical. Make different "tuned" versions. Acme "main" would be Zero-p, "cross braced" and have a "steeper" trim. Acme reserve would be f111 "small pack" , Tso C23d (250 mph 300lbs). The canopy would offer different "options" for crw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #14 February 13, 2008 QuoteThis is exactly what I am talking about.Make a canopy model, call it the Acme for name sake. One plan form, i.e. smei elliptical. Make different "tuned" versions. Acme "main" would be Zero-p, "cross braced" and have a "steeper" trim. Acme reserve would be f111 "small pack" , Tso C23d (250 mph 300lbs). The canopy would offer different "options" for crw. Don't ya think there might be some reasons why cross braced swoop canopies and reserves look a little different? If canopy manufacturers could figure out how to get every type of performance out of the same canopy design, they would. But what would the advantage be of having a bunch of different canopies with different construction and different parts that all share the same planform? They'd still be all different canopies (but with the same name to confuse everyone?). Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites filioque 0 #15 February 13, 2008 The goal is to reduce the costs of manufacture. To make Skydiving for novices/ intermediate more affordable and easier to choose. Spimplifying production could yeild as high as a 50% cost reduction. Hwoever if the canopy "sucks" no one will buy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #16 February 13, 2008 R&D isn't free. Neither is quality control initiatives. It is bad business to spend 50 million dollars to reduce production costs, when you only have 1 million of market share. But I bet you are right, you figured out something that multiple skydiving companies completely missed. Time to get a small business loan and get cranking. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #17 February 13, 2008 Well, I just don't think having multiple types of canopies that share the same planform would help at all with manufacturing costs. You're talking about canopies that would have completely different parts (cross bracing) and different materials. I'm sure the costs of a canopy come from R&D (which wouldn't chage because every size and every type would need just as much testing) and labor (which wouldn't change because they still have to sew all the parts together). The planform really doesn't matter much as far as cost goes (though I bet a perfectly rectangular canopy is cheaper to manufacture than a fancy elliptical). Things like welded seams instead of sewn seams might make real differences in manufacturing cost. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #18 February 13, 2008 Good points. I cannot see materials changing between the "Pond Swooper Special" vs. the "Keep the Stupid Student Alive" models. Major manufacturers have already figured out most of the ways to shave costs in manufacturing. We are only going to see a change in manufacturing cost when we go to welded seams. Did I tell you about the nifty raincoat - from Arcteryx - with glued seams? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites filioque 0 #19 February 13, 2008 QuoteGood points. I cannot see materials changing between the "Pond Swooper Special" vs. the "Keep the Stupid Student Alive" models. Major manufacturers have already figured out most of the ways to shave costs in manufacturing. We are only going to see a change in manufacturing cost when we go to welded seams. Did I tell you about the nifty raincoat - from Arcteryx - with glued seams? I disagree, is there one manufacturer out there that uses robots? The auto industry does. With my solution the number of patterns is reduced to enable "robotic laser cutting". People would then inspect and add the variations to the canopy to make it the desired model. This would reduce costs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #20 February 13, 2008 Quote The auto industry does. With my solution the number of patterns is reduced to enable "robotic laser cutting". People would then inspect and add the variations to the canopy to make it the desired model. This would reduce costs. I'd be surprised if any major vendor isn't cutting their canopies with a giant computer controlled plotter equipped with a hot-knife or laser cutter. Smaller companies use the same equipment because they contract out the actual manufacture. It's all CAD files that have been manually adjusted for different sizes to meet the performance expectations because things don't scale (as a trivial example, the line surface area only decreases with the square root of size so line drag is much more significant on small canopies). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #21 February 13, 2008 Once you have a "robotic" cutter (which they do), you still have to sew all the pieces together. Think about the ribs of an elliptical canopy. The airfoil changes all the way down the span, so each rib has to be different. The sides are mirrored, so you'll have two of each, but there's a good chance that they need different colors anyway. So they can't just make 1000 ribs and pull them off the rack as they need em. Each canopy has to get all its parts cut from the right color roll of fabric. Then each size canopy needs completely different ribs. I'm sure "robotic" cutting machines made a giant difference in canopy manufacturing. Can't imagine if they had a physical template for each piece they need to cut. It'd be crazy. Wouldn't be possible to produce so many different models and sizes. QuotePeople would then inspect and add the variations to the canopy to make it the desired model. People would then take the hundreds of parts that the robotic cutter cut and sew them together. Can't just make "variations." We're not making pants that can be tailored. Especially when it comes to reserves. Every model and every size of each model has to go through the same testing. That would still happen if all the parts that came off the cutting table could be used to make reserves or mains. Just wouldn't cut costs because thousands of different parts would still need to be made and sewn together to get every type and size of canopy. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
pilotdave 0 #14 February 13, 2008 QuoteThis is exactly what I am talking about.Make a canopy model, call it the Acme for name sake. One plan form, i.e. smei elliptical. Make different "tuned" versions. Acme "main" would be Zero-p, "cross braced" and have a "steeper" trim. Acme reserve would be f111 "small pack" , Tso C23d (250 mph 300lbs). The canopy would offer different "options" for crw. Don't ya think there might be some reasons why cross braced swoop canopies and reserves look a little different? If canopy manufacturers could figure out how to get every type of performance out of the same canopy design, they would. But what would the advantage be of having a bunch of different canopies with different construction and different parts that all share the same planform? They'd still be all different canopies (but with the same name to confuse everyone?). Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
filioque 0 #15 February 13, 2008 The goal is to reduce the costs of manufacture. To make Skydiving for novices/ intermediate more affordable and easier to choose. Spimplifying production could yeild as high as a 50% cost reduction. Hwoever if the canopy "sucks" no one will buy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #16 February 13, 2008 R&D isn't free. Neither is quality control initiatives. It is bad business to spend 50 million dollars to reduce production costs, when you only have 1 million of market share. But I bet you are right, you figured out something that multiple skydiving companies completely missed. Time to get a small business loan and get cranking. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #17 February 13, 2008 Well, I just don't think having multiple types of canopies that share the same planform would help at all with manufacturing costs. You're talking about canopies that would have completely different parts (cross bracing) and different materials. I'm sure the costs of a canopy come from R&D (which wouldn't chage because every size and every type would need just as much testing) and labor (which wouldn't change because they still have to sew all the parts together). The planform really doesn't matter much as far as cost goes (though I bet a perfectly rectangular canopy is cheaper to manufacture than a fancy elliptical). Things like welded seams instead of sewn seams might make real differences in manufacturing cost. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #18 February 13, 2008 Good points. I cannot see materials changing between the "Pond Swooper Special" vs. the "Keep the Stupid Student Alive" models. Major manufacturers have already figured out most of the ways to shave costs in manufacturing. We are only going to see a change in manufacturing cost when we go to welded seams. Did I tell you about the nifty raincoat - from Arcteryx - with glued seams? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
filioque 0 #19 February 13, 2008 QuoteGood points. I cannot see materials changing between the "Pond Swooper Special" vs. the "Keep the Stupid Student Alive" models. Major manufacturers have already figured out most of the ways to shave costs in manufacturing. We are only going to see a change in manufacturing cost when we go to welded seams. Did I tell you about the nifty raincoat - from Arcteryx - with glued seams? I disagree, is there one manufacturer out there that uses robots? The auto industry does. With my solution the number of patterns is reduced to enable "robotic laser cutting". People would then inspect and add the variations to the canopy to make it the desired model. This would reduce costs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #20 February 13, 2008 Quote The auto industry does. With my solution the number of patterns is reduced to enable "robotic laser cutting". People would then inspect and add the variations to the canopy to make it the desired model. This would reduce costs. I'd be surprised if any major vendor isn't cutting their canopies with a giant computer controlled plotter equipped with a hot-knife or laser cutter. Smaller companies use the same equipment because they contract out the actual manufacture. It's all CAD files that have been manually adjusted for different sizes to meet the performance expectations because things don't scale (as a trivial example, the line surface area only decreases with the square root of size so line drag is much more significant on small canopies). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #21 February 13, 2008 Once you have a "robotic" cutter (which they do), you still have to sew all the pieces together. Think about the ribs of an elliptical canopy. The airfoil changes all the way down the span, so each rib has to be different. The sides are mirrored, so you'll have two of each, but there's a good chance that they need different colors anyway. So they can't just make 1000 ribs and pull them off the rack as they need em. Each canopy has to get all its parts cut from the right color roll of fabric. Then each size canopy needs completely different ribs. I'm sure "robotic" cutting machines made a giant difference in canopy manufacturing. Can't imagine if they had a physical template for each piece they need to cut. It'd be crazy. Wouldn't be possible to produce so many different models and sizes. QuotePeople would then inspect and add the variations to the canopy to make it the desired model. People would then take the hundreds of parts that the robotic cutter cut and sew them together. Can't just make "variations." We're not making pants that can be tailored. Especially when it comes to reserves. Every model and every size of each model has to go through the same testing. That would still happen if all the parts that came off the cutting table could be used to make reserves or mains. Just wouldn't cut costs because thousands of different parts would still need to be made and sewn together to get every type and size of canopy. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
