diablopilot 2 #26 August 15, 2005 Leg straps are not going to cause that sort of reaction.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #27 August 16, 2005 Appointment with my doc tomorrow morning, in case anyone was losing sleep worrying. He's a sports medicine guy who's into some hard-core stuff himself, so I'm hoping the discussion won't start and end with "well, just stop skydiving, silly." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #28 August 16, 2005 Hope you're ok Krisanne. Give me a call or text. ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bandanarama 0 #29 August 16, 2005 Remember, blood pressure in arteries feeding the extremities is much greater than veins returning blood to the heart. In fact veins rely on valves and muscular contraction to move blood back to the heart unlike arteries (no valves and much thicker to compensate for the higher pressure). It's much easier to push blood away from the heart than it is to get it back. Throw in cutting/decreasing circulation from the extremities, high altitude, and physiological factors and it's possible... The best advice has been to visit the doc just to make sure all is well. He'll probably recommend the basics but leave Krisanne with a reassuring feeling of no serious problems. Good health Krisanne! ___________________________________________________ One's destination is never a place, but rather a new way of looking at things. ~ Henry Miller Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #30 August 16, 2005 Any thoughts on tight leg straps doing the opposite? I mean, fighter pilots where pressure suits that restrict the flow of blood going down into their legs...I know the only sensation I've had with super tight leg straps is feeling my legs start to get tingly-numbish, like they are going to fall asleep.~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #31 August 16, 2005 fighter pilots wear pressure suits that constrict the legs (and lower torso?), not leaving the blood anyplace to go but back up. If you put a rubber band around your finger it'll likely turn purple - that's blood, not a lack of it. You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #32 August 16, 2005 QuoteAppointment with my doc tomorrow morning, in case anyone was losing sleep worrying. He's a sports medicine guy who's into some hard-core stuff himself, so I'm hoping the discussion won't start and end with "well, just stop skydiving, silly." Dopn't smoke not that time of month Eating OK Prego Don't go there Take your rig with you when you see the DrLast thought if all else fails KISS do a static hanging harness with your rig on, leg straps tight, for a long time and see how that feels. If you pass out you found the problem. If you pee your pants go to the bathroom first and try again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #33 August 16, 2005 QuoteI was going to PM this but thought better of it as it could play a factor in your loss of consciousness and if it is a factor, other women might be wise to just keep it in the back of their head. Is it that time of the month? Blood loss from that could, also, play a factor in your loss of consciousness. Menstrual blood does not come from the bloodstream, it's been building up uterinely over the course of the previous few weeks, so would not have any effect on this. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #34 August 16, 2005 Update: Doc says probably nothing serious but we're doing tests. EKG and chest x-ray today (normal); I go back in on Thursday for a full physical, including blood work and stress test. He also said "Since the consequences of passing out are so dire for you we might consider a neuro consult as well." Nice thing was he took the fact that I skydive seriously and the discussion didn't revolve around whether or not I should do it."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #35 August 16, 2005 NW: What did he thing of the possibility it was tight leg straps restricitng your blood flow combined with the G's from the spirals and slight hypoxia? (Just for my own curiosity.) I hope you're able to get back in the air soon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #36 August 16, 2005 QuoteNW: What did he thing of the possibility it was tight leg straps restricitng your blood flow combined with the G's from the spirals and slight hypoxia? (Just for my own curiosity.) He said it seemed like a reasonable possibility. We didn't really talk about the spirals. I'll ask more questions on Thursday - I think I'll have more time with him then. QuoteI hope you're able to get back in the air soon. Oh, I was back in the air Sunday and felt great. Barring a premature deployment, I will be avoiding long canopy rides for now, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tustinr 1 #37 August 17, 2005 Just to educate all you non-medicals out there. Arteries have thick walls composed of both smooth muscle and elastic fibres - while they can be compressed it takes some pressure to do so and you will have to use positive pressure to keep it closed. When you release the artery it will spring back to its normal size even without blood in it. A vein is the opposite - the only thing that keeps it open is the pressure of the blood in it. Take out the blood and it collapses. Now take the scenario of tight leg straps: Ateries and veins run alongside one another. The arteries supplying the leg and veins draining the leg are large - app 1cm in diameter. There are more than one but the largest ones, the femoral artery and vein run anteriorly from the pelvis down into the deeper anterior thigh muscles. With a really tight legstrap the veins will be pushed close before the arteries are effected - i.e blood continues flowing down and into the leg but cannot flow upwards out of the leg to the inferior vena cava as the vein is compressed shut by the leg strap. The nett effect is that blood continues to accumulate in the legs at a steady rate while venous outflow is impeded. The end result is a decrease in blood flow back to the heart which means there is eventually less blood available to supply the brain with oxygen resulting in a faint (reduced bllod volume) - similar to orthostatic hypotension. Have you ever seen a parade where soldiers are standing on parade for hours without moving and some of them faint - due to increased blood stasis in the legs and decreased heart output to the brain (as soon as they collapse and are lying on the ground the blood flow to the heart increases and they recover quickly). Remember venous flow from the legs is reliant on muscle contractions in the lower leg - standing motionless for hours at a time causes blood to pool in the leg veins. Pretty simple. The effect of tight leg straps could easily cause similar problems and would be compounded if you spiraled down - the G forces would cause more blood to pool in the veins of the legs and the tight leg straps would impede blood flow out of the legs while arterial flow to the leg is maintained. As soon as you land and release pressure on the occluded vessel - return to normal. Of course muscle movement will also help. We are not all built anatomically the same - different arm and leg lengths, obese, thin, different harness sizes. We may wear different clothes each time we are on the DZ and wear our harness. All these factors may be variable from day to day, jump to jump. Bottom line it is entirely feasible that the cause of her problems are too tight leg straps from an ill fitting harness. The fact she did a few spirals could have contributed. Also the fact she hadn't eaten all day may have been a small contributing factor. Nevertheless having a full medical won't harm anyone but I doubt they will find anything "wrong" with her. Some of the advice given in previous postings is excellent. Like alter body position in straps under canopy, let a master rigger alter her harness etc. I would also like to suggest she move her legs while hanging under harnes even if its only contracting/relaxing her calf muscles to assist blood flow out of her legs. Hope the above helps. Cheers Rich (oh I am a medical doctor by the way - in fact a specialist pathologist - for those who have never heard of me before). --------------------------------------- Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EvilLurker 2 #38 August 17, 2005 Thanks, that confirmed a lot of my thoughts. I know I've gotten slight "grey-outs" from spiraling hard under canopy, I think it's a possibly significant factor in this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tustinr 1 #39 August 17, 2005 Yes take it easy. Basically you end up with an acute hypotensive (low blood pressure - as mentioned above) episode causing decreased blood flow to the brain and loss of conciousness albeit briefly if you stop the spirals immediately. If you don't you may end up in trouble i.e. loss of conciousness with all the sequalae thereof ! --------------------------------------- Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites USPA 0 #40 August 17, 2005 I don't think it's enough blood to have any effect, but all your blood comes from the bloodstream! Your confusing the endometrium with blood. The endometrium is what builds up, the blood comes from ruptured (soons more scary then it is) small blood vessels.The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #41 August 17, 2005 QuoteQuoteI was going to PM this but thought better of it as it could play a factor in your loss of consciousness and if it is a factor, other women might be wise to just keep it in the back of their head. Is it that time of the month? Blood loss from that could, also, play a factor in your loss of consciousness. Nope, not that time of month, either. I was thinking something similar. Given that the two people who've responded in this thread describing similar problems (Gia and Sunny) are also women, perhaps a poll in the women's forum and input from a kbordson type could shed some light on something we're not thinking of. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpwally 0 #42 August 17, 2005 Rich,,I'm glad you are an MD,,here I thought you just slept at a Holiday Inn......................smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kbordson 8 #43 August 18, 2005 WOW!!!!!! Glad you're ok. That could have been a very serious situation!!! Reading through this thread, there are some helpful and some not so helpful replies (from my perspective and understanding of the human body - but remember, 200 years from now, they will be laughing at what we think about "modern medicine") Overall, I would have to completely agree with tustinr. I think it's possible that the venous pooling in your legs could lead to hypotension and thus.... passing out. Can I tell you for sure? Nope, that's why it's very wise of you to go to the Dr and get the work up to make sure that it's not something more serious. Here are a couple of articles that might help explain syncope (fainting) http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4749 http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BUY/is_11_10/ai_67881675#continue http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3385.htm Another thing to briefly chat with your doc about is the possiblity of a new onset seizure disorder (although it's unlikely at your age to get epilepsy) here's a website to just scan with some info on seizures http://www.epilepsy.com/101/101_epilepsy.html And no, I don't think "that time of the month" would influence whether you have a syncopal episode or not. It might make you feel less on the game, but not to the point of passing out. The amount of menstrual flow amounts to a total blood loss of 60 to 250 milliliters (4 tablespoons to about 1 cup). And some of that isn't really "blood" rather the endometrial lining (tissue) Again.... WOW, you've got some angels watching over your shoulder. Karen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #44 August 18, 2005 Thanks, Karen and Rich! I appreciate the info from the medical/skydiving community. I certainly understand that neither of you can properly diagnose me, but I do appreciate the additional info that I can bring to discuss with my doc. With as little time as we get with doctors these days, I like to do as much of my own research as possible, and of course, this is a tough topic to research."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tustinr 1 #45 August 18, 2005 Yeah I have no doubt you can discount the theory of menstrual blood loss - it is minimal. It would take a lot more blood loss to cause loss of conciousness. And nah I don't particularly like Holiday Inns - sleeping there anyway. --------------------------------------- Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #46 August 18, 2005 Hey Doc. Your description cleared up any doubts I may have had about the leg strap issue. Thanks for making it clear to someone who (so far) has never has any issues with his body! tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frenchy68 0 #47 August 18, 2005 Thanks for the post. Question: what are the risks of having the leg straps too loose? Broken femur on hard opening? If there are inherent risks, should then leg straps tightness be adjusted according to the type of jump (ie high altitude H&P vs regular altitude pull)? "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #48 August 18, 2005 Bruised thighs ... eating chest strap on opening ... falling backwards out of harness ... etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tustinr 1 #49 August 19, 2005 As per Robs post. Mostly traumatic injuries - you can probably add whip lash injuries and broken neck to the list (from chest strap smacking chin). Rich --------------------------------------- Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ngawang01 0 #50 August 19, 2005 Venous blood does not carry oxygen. Arterial blood does. In the leg veins, as stated in the article, blood flow from your feet to your heart in one direction helped by the so-call vein valves. This flow is very passive and the movement of your legs is vital for the flow, it help it grandiously. The problem here is that if you don't move your legs enough to create this flow, blood tends to slow down and the possibility of forming blood clots increases (some people are more prone to form clots than others). The g's increases as you make the turns (no matters how small the turn) and this also contribute to reduce your blood flow. Now, this is a REAL and SERIOUS problem. If blood clots form in you veins, and they are not degraded by your homeostatic system before they reach the heart arteries, lungs or your brain you will either have a heart attack or a pulmonary embolism, and last but not least a brain stroke. You could had experience a minor brain stroke or a pulmonary embolism that cut you oxygen supply for a nanosecond. Thats all it takes to make you lose conciousness. If you felt chest pain, headache or shortnest of breath after the landing, then you should go to the ER and get check out. A D-dimer blood test that takes about ten minutes to perform can confirm if blood clots had form in the last 4-6 hrs. A MIMS- (troponin) (myocardial infarction marker series) test can confirm a heart attack. I'm not expert in the medicine field, but if that what you really experienced, then you are the luckiest person I have ever known. Blood clots are NO JOKE. "Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies Tongue-tied and twisted Just an earth-bound misfit, I". pf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 1 1
NWFlyer 2 #36 August 16, 2005 QuoteNW: What did he thing of the possibility it was tight leg straps restricitng your blood flow combined with the G's from the spirals and slight hypoxia? (Just for my own curiosity.) He said it seemed like a reasonable possibility. We didn't really talk about the spirals. I'll ask more questions on Thursday - I think I'll have more time with him then. QuoteI hope you're able to get back in the air soon. Oh, I was back in the air Sunday and felt great. Barring a premature deployment, I will be avoiding long canopy rides for now, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tustinr 1 #37 August 17, 2005 Just to educate all you non-medicals out there. Arteries have thick walls composed of both smooth muscle and elastic fibres - while they can be compressed it takes some pressure to do so and you will have to use positive pressure to keep it closed. When you release the artery it will spring back to its normal size even without blood in it. A vein is the opposite - the only thing that keeps it open is the pressure of the blood in it. Take out the blood and it collapses. Now take the scenario of tight leg straps: Ateries and veins run alongside one another. The arteries supplying the leg and veins draining the leg are large - app 1cm in diameter. There are more than one but the largest ones, the femoral artery and vein run anteriorly from the pelvis down into the deeper anterior thigh muscles. With a really tight legstrap the veins will be pushed close before the arteries are effected - i.e blood continues flowing down and into the leg but cannot flow upwards out of the leg to the inferior vena cava as the vein is compressed shut by the leg strap. The nett effect is that blood continues to accumulate in the legs at a steady rate while venous outflow is impeded. The end result is a decrease in blood flow back to the heart which means there is eventually less blood available to supply the brain with oxygen resulting in a faint (reduced bllod volume) - similar to orthostatic hypotension. Have you ever seen a parade where soldiers are standing on parade for hours without moving and some of them faint - due to increased blood stasis in the legs and decreased heart output to the brain (as soon as they collapse and are lying on the ground the blood flow to the heart increases and they recover quickly). Remember venous flow from the legs is reliant on muscle contractions in the lower leg - standing motionless for hours at a time causes blood to pool in the leg veins. Pretty simple. The effect of tight leg straps could easily cause similar problems and would be compounded if you spiraled down - the G forces would cause more blood to pool in the veins of the legs and the tight leg straps would impede blood flow out of the legs while arterial flow to the leg is maintained. As soon as you land and release pressure on the occluded vessel - return to normal. Of course muscle movement will also help. We are not all built anatomically the same - different arm and leg lengths, obese, thin, different harness sizes. We may wear different clothes each time we are on the DZ and wear our harness. All these factors may be variable from day to day, jump to jump. Bottom line it is entirely feasible that the cause of her problems are too tight leg straps from an ill fitting harness. The fact she did a few spirals could have contributed. Also the fact she hadn't eaten all day may have been a small contributing factor. Nevertheless having a full medical won't harm anyone but I doubt they will find anything "wrong" with her. Some of the advice given in previous postings is excellent. Like alter body position in straps under canopy, let a master rigger alter her harness etc. I would also like to suggest she move her legs while hanging under harnes even if its only contracting/relaxing her calf muscles to assist blood flow out of her legs. Hope the above helps. Cheers Rich (oh I am a medical doctor by the way - in fact a specialist pathologist - for those who have never heard of me before). --------------------------------------- Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #38 August 17, 2005 Thanks, that confirmed a lot of my thoughts. I know I've gotten slight "grey-outs" from spiraling hard under canopy, I think it's a possibly significant factor in this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tustinr 1 #39 August 17, 2005 Yes take it easy. Basically you end up with an acute hypotensive (low blood pressure - as mentioned above) episode causing decreased blood flow to the brain and loss of conciousness albeit briefly if you stop the spirals immediately. If you don't you may end up in trouble i.e. loss of conciousness with all the sequalae thereof ! --------------------------------------- Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #40 August 17, 2005 I don't think it's enough blood to have any effect, but all your blood comes from the bloodstream! Your confusing the endometrium with blood. The endometrium is what builds up, the blood comes from ruptured (soons more scary then it is) small blood vessels.The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #41 August 17, 2005 QuoteQuoteI was going to PM this but thought better of it as it could play a factor in your loss of consciousness and if it is a factor, other women might be wise to just keep it in the back of their head. Is it that time of the month? Blood loss from that could, also, play a factor in your loss of consciousness. Nope, not that time of month, either. I was thinking something similar. Given that the two people who've responded in this thread describing similar problems (Gia and Sunny) are also women, perhaps a poll in the women's forum and input from a kbordson type could shed some light on something we're not thinking of. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #42 August 17, 2005 Rich,,I'm glad you are an MD,,here I thought you just slept at a Holiday Inn......................smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #43 August 18, 2005 WOW!!!!!! Glad you're ok. That could have been a very serious situation!!! Reading through this thread, there are some helpful and some not so helpful replies (from my perspective and understanding of the human body - but remember, 200 years from now, they will be laughing at what we think about "modern medicine") Overall, I would have to completely agree with tustinr. I think it's possible that the venous pooling in your legs could lead to hypotension and thus.... passing out. Can I tell you for sure? Nope, that's why it's very wise of you to go to the Dr and get the work up to make sure that it's not something more serious. Here are a couple of articles that might help explain syncope (fainting) http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4749 http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BUY/is_11_10/ai_67881675#continue http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3385.htm Another thing to briefly chat with your doc about is the possiblity of a new onset seizure disorder (although it's unlikely at your age to get epilepsy) here's a website to just scan with some info on seizures http://www.epilepsy.com/101/101_epilepsy.html And no, I don't think "that time of the month" would influence whether you have a syncopal episode or not. It might make you feel less on the game, but not to the point of passing out. The amount of menstrual flow amounts to a total blood loss of 60 to 250 milliliters (4 tablespoons to about 1 cup). And some of that isn't really "blood" rather the endometrial lining (tissue) Again.... WOW, you've got some angels watching over your shoulder. Karen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #44 August 18, 2005 Thanks, Karen and Rich! I appreciate the info from the medical/skydiving community. I certainly understand that neither of you can properly diagnose me, but I do appreciate the additional info that I can bring to discuss with my doc. With as little time as we get with doctors these days, I like to do as much of my own research as possible, and of course, this is a tough topic to research."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tustinr 1 #45 August 18, 2005 Yeah I have no doubt you can discount the theory of menstrual blood loss - it is minimal. It would take a lot more blood loss to cause loss of conciousness. And nah I don't particularly like Holiday Inns - sleeping there anyway. --------------------------------------- Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #46 August 18, 2005 Hey Doc. Your description cleared up any doubts I may have had about the leg strap issue. Thanks for making it clear to someone who (so far) has never has any issues with his body! tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #47 August 18, 2005 Thanks for the post. Question: what are the risks of having the leg straps too loose? Broken femur on hard opening? If there are inherent risks, should then leg straps tightness be adjusted according to the type of jump (ie high altitude H&P vs regular altitude pull)? "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #48 August 18, 2005 Bruised thighs ... eating chest strap on opening ... falling backwards out of harness ... etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tustinr 1 #49 August 19, 2005 As per Robs post. Mostly traumatic injuries - you can probably add whip lash injuries and broken neck to the list (from chest strap smacking chin). Rich --------------------------------------- Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ngawang01 0 #50 August 19, 2005 Venous blood does not carry oxygen. Arterial blood does. In the leg veins, as stated in the article, blood flow from your feet to your heart in one direction helped by the so-call vein valves. This flow is very passive and the movement of your legs is vital for the flow, it help it grandiously. The problem here is that if you don't move your legs enough to create this flow, blood tends to slow down and the possibility of forming blood clots increases (some people are more prone to form clots than others). The g's increases as you make the turns (no matters how small the turn) and this also contribute to reduce your blood flow. Now, this is a REAL and SERIOUS problem. If blood clots form in you veins, and they are not degraded by your homeostatic system before they reach the heart arteries, lungs or your brain you will either have a heart attack or a pulmonary embolism, and last but not least a brain stroke. You could had experience a minor brain stroke or a pulmonary embolism that cut you oxygen supply for a nanosecond. Thats all it takes to make you lose conciousness. If you felt chest pain, headache or shortnest of breath after the landing, then you should go to the ER and get check out. A D-dimer blood test that takes about ten minutes to perform can confirm if blood clots had form in the last 4-6 hrs. A MIMS- (troponin) (myocardial infarction marker series) test can confirm a heart attack. I'm not expert in the medicine field, but if that what you really experienced, then you are the luckiest person I have ever known. Blood clots are NO JOKE. "Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies Tongue-tied and twisted Just an earth-bound misfit, I". pf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
