Reflex Repacking

[Unstable 9]

My dirty little secret is that I always REALLY wanted to figure out a way to substitute a Racer-Style Quick loop on Strong 304 seats that I pack for the Aerobatic Club here in town. I think it would make the system easier to assemble, and It would eliminate the need for the Redundant second set of "starter" grommets. I need to get the guts and go ask Strong about it....

=========Shaun ==========

[likestojump 3]

I know this gets thrown out a few times in this thread.

My Reflex packing manual dated 2/9/1998
page 37
step 31 in closing the container

"Insert the excess loop up under the cap as show in Figure 6-31. This will allow for field adjustments to be made by the Rigger who packed it only."

I would imagine anybody else who tightens it would theoretically invalidate the packjob as per FARs.

Of course all this is a moot point considering that if this results in a bounce it would be very hard if not impossible to prove if this was infact caused by a tight closing loop and who in fact was the last person to adjust it.

[diablopilot 2]

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but I see real merit in the Catapult system if you ever have a horseshoe malfunction. The inventor posts on this forum occasionally.

So, who is the *inventor* of the secondary pilot chute? Does he still support the system?

For those who support the catapult, I would like to know your thoughts on the Cross Keys fatality on a Reflex. Is it,"some safety equipment will cause failures elsewhere? like the RSL, AADs, etc?

I would just like to hear peoples opinion one way or the other.

The Cross Keys fatality was an out of sequence emergency procedures ralated problem, it had nothing to do with the Catapult.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[stratostar 5]

Would you want your name and seal on this
"type of rig" that someone else had tightened way above 20 lbs. and now there is a bounce in the LZ, say a chick with a pull force of 60 LBS on inspection. Prove you that you didn't do it wrong, that can't done, but it dose call in to question of a another person doing it due to the location of the adjustment loop, but no way to prove it, however spending a number of hours with the feds crawling up and down your ass & paper work is not my idea of fun.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[likestojump 3]

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Would you want your name and seal on this
"type of rig" that someone else had tightened way above 20 lbs. and now there is a bounce in the LZ, say a chick with a pull force of 60 LBS on inspection. Prove you that you didn't do it wrong, that can't done, but it dose call in to question of a another person doing it due to the location of the adjustment loop, but no way to prove it, however spending a number of hours with the feds crawling up and down your ass & paper work is not my idea of fun.

I agree whole heartedly. My only point was that it's illegal for anyone but the original rigger to adjust. Doesn't make it any less accessible to any douchebag though.

[drjump 0]

If the packing rigger is worried about 'someone else' tightening the closing loop what is keeping him from putting a seal on the little opening of the pilot chute cap?

[billvon 2,996]

>what is keeping him from putting a seal on the little opening of the pilot
>chute cap?

Because then if someone goes in on the rig and someone else DIDN'T tighten it down (which is actually the more likely scenario) the question from the FAA becomes "why did you perform an illegal and unauthorized modification on the deceased jumper's container, and how do you know it did not contribute to the incident?"

[drjump 0]

Good answer.

[divnswoop 0]

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The Cross Keys fatality was an out of sequence emergency procedures ralated problem, it had nothing to do with the Catapult.

Oh, I was just curious why the DPRE that investigated that accident stopped packing catapults afterwards.

[gofastrlbrown 0]

I cannot believe you are basing your theory of the safety of the catapult on one incident in Cross Keys. If someone bounces with a Mirage, does the Mirage suck. If someone bounces with he rig you are using, does that mean the rig you are wearing sucks or could it sometimes be pilot error.
GOFAST

It is strange, the more I practice, the better I get!

[JonnyGuru 0]

I've seen some riggers take the catapult off. To pack it is NOT hard... It's pretty negligable... Not a hard thing to deal with..

Make the most of what ya got!

[divnswoop 0]

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I cannot believe you are basing your theory of the safety of the catapult on one incident in Cross Keys. If someone bounces with a Mirage, does the Mirage suck. If someone bounces with he rig you are using, does that mean the rig you are wearing sucks or could it sometimes be pilot error.

I can't believe you didn't read my post before replying. I don't have a "theory" on the catapult. I simply asked questions from the people who support the catapult. In my original post I talked about RSL's, AAD's, etc being safety items that sometimes cause negative outcomes. DOes that mean we should take those off? No, nor did I ever say that about the catapult. I am just looking for more information from educated jumpers/ instructors and why the like this system...and if it is superior, should other manufactures look at adding it.

[gofastrlbrown 0]

I am sorry. I was not basing my comment on your statement. It was some others earlier in the thread. I have to learn how to use this reply deal. Except my apology please. I was not aiming at you.
GOFAST

It is strange, the more I practice, the better I get!

[Auryn 0]

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Thanks everybody for the comments. I believe I will keep my Reflex, it is in awesome shape. I'll say to heck with the bad attitudes towards it. It is like it was pointed out earlier, we always face a chance of a bounce in a horseshoe malfunction.
GOFAST

So, with the Catapult, why DOUBLE the chance of a horseshoe on your reserve with 2 PCs? I don't see any logic to it.. if you have a horseshoe on the first PC, the second may save you. However, if you have a horseshoe on the second PC (the one closest to you on the bridle) you/re going to have the problem of the tension of the first PC on your rig (essentially a reserve PC in tow). If you can show me a comprehensive list of catapult saves, I might sign onto the "innovation". I personally don't call it that. I firmly believe in the "KISS" system. "Keep It Simple, Stupid."

give me 1 reserve pc, a long bridle and a good launch. This system has saved WAY more many lives than the "catapult".

We all face the chance of a bounce on a horseshoe mal, whether it be with the main, the reserve w/ 1 pc or the reserve w/ 2 PCs.

The solution is really quite simple:

breakoff high enough that you know you can get into a perfectly stable position. if you can't do that, then the higher breakoff will give you more time to fix your problem. follow EPs, as you were taught. land, jump, repeat.

I don't think a second, or third, PC will give me any advantage, the same way I don't think a tertiary canopy will increase my safety margin. Do what you're taught, when you're taught to do it, and you'll be at the highest chance of survival in the sport. there is NOTHING that will make it 100 percent survivable, and in the case of the catapult, I think it makes it worse. 2 PCs, double the chance of entanglement.

Im hoping to finish my rigger's ticket this summer, and if/when I do, I will not pack a reflex with a catapult.

[billvon 2,996]

>So, with the Catapult, why DOUBLE the chance of a horseshoe on your
>reserve with 2 PCs?

Actual experience has shown that it helps more often than it hurts. Indeed, the original design was inspired by a reserve mal that Mick had that would likely have been cleared by a catapult.

>This system has saved WAY more many lives than the "catapult".

That's not really any sort of data. Over the past ten years my life has been saved by a catapult based system way more often than by a non-catapult system. In both cases, there aren't enough data points to prove anything.

Heck, most BASE jumpers have their lives saved by a single parachute system way more times than with a dual parachute system. That doesn't prove single parachute systems are safer - even if they are far simpler.

>breakoff high enough that you know you can get into a perfectly
>stable position. (etc etc)

Yes, if everything goes perfectly, you don't need a catapult, an RSL, an AAD or even a reserve. History has shown, though, that things often don't go perfectly in skydiving - and history has also shown that those items listed above _do_ save lives when problems occur.

>Im hoping to finish my rigger's ticket this summer, and if/when I do, I
>will not pack a reflex with a catapult.

Fortunately, you won't have to, and there aren't many out there any more.