Why I jumped a whole Season with a BASE rig from 13K ft...

[NWFlyer 2]

JP, I'm having trouble understanding where you're coming from on this one. You seem to be blaming the jumper for this one.

I think your advice about having a trusted rigger by 100 jumps is valid advice, and what you said about having someone other than the manufacturer do the initial assembly as a final "quality control" step is also a great idea.

But other than using a different rigger, what could this guy have done differently here? What type of personal responsibility are you suggesting he take? Unpack it himself and check the rigger's work? I guess I'm a little lost at where you're going with this.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[ficus 0]

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Really? Would you?

I guess personal responsibility is out the window these days. Try looking at your own gear once and a while.

What was he supposed to do? Open his reserve container and do a gear check? The first realistic opportunity he had to do so was at the time of his first repack, when the error was discovered.

[jumper03 0]

so to really throw some controversy in here...

If Germany had a 120 day repack cycle, instead of a one year cycle - this would have been caught much sooner.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[phoenixlpr 0]

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so to really throw some controversy in here...

If Germany had a 120 day repack cycle, instead of a one year cycle - this would have been caught much sooner.

Do you say that the main reason having 120s of reserve repack cycle in US that some riggers don't know how to assemble a reserve correctly?

[diablopilot 2]

I'm sorry if my replies seem to be conflicting.

I agree that the supervising rigger should be held accountable, and it sounds like he/she has.

As a separate issue, I'm a bit annoyed by the "young punk" attitude I've seen from a few here that hold threats of physical violence towards the offending rigger.

If they really feel that way then they are idiots for trusting anyone else to take their life in their hands. If you're gonna be so bold, learn to do it yourself.

These days, I witness the majority of jumpers hand gear over to anyone who is labeled "rigger", pay them some money and have no concern other than it not be wrinkly or late when they get it back, but not one of them could identify a safety stow, or verify that toggles are properly stowed on their reserve. They simply have faith in the "Black Magic" that their 40 to 80 dollars buys.

The OP has made a great point and lesson avaliable to be learned, but I fear that it's getting lost on many of the masses here.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

BTW to answer your last questions, I believe that had you rig been packed by an FAA rigger the out come would have been similar, unless the rigger had a history of misconduct.

Also I think the reserve would have inflated, but would have controllability issues.

As an side note, if you really have only 100 jumps then your wing loadings are too high.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[BrianM 1]

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If Germany had a 120 day repack cycle, instead of a one year cycle - this would have been caught much sooner.

Yes. Three times as many repacks also means three times the likelihood of rigging errors being made. It's a wash.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[NWFlyer 2]

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I agree that the supervising rigger should be held accountable, and it sounds like he/she has.

Do you feel like the level of accountability was appropriate?

I think the original poster was curious (and I'm curious myself)... would the FAA have responded differently in a case such as this if the rigger admitted similar information (allowing the trainee to do the pack job, not supervising or verifying the quality of the pack job before signing off on it)?

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As a separate issue, I'm a bit annoyed by the "young punk" attitude I've seen from a few here that hold threats of physical violence towards the offending rigger.

If they really feel that way then they are idiots for trusting anyone else to take their life in their hands. If you're gonna be so bold, learn to do it yourself.

These days, I witness the majority of jumpers hand gear over to anyone who is labeled "rigger", pay them some money and have no concern other than it not be wrinkly or late when they get it back, but not one of them could identify a safety stow, or verify that toggles are properly stowed on their reserve. They simply have faith in the "Black Magic" that their 40 to 80 dollars buys.

Fair enough, and it's probably a good reminder that we can all stand to learn more about our gear. But we're not all going to become riggers; this thread is a nice reminder that maybe we can be a bit more thoughtful in how we choose the people that do that "black magic. Maybe I'll bump the thread I started a while back on evaluating a rigger - it sparked some good discussion on how to make that choice and might be good for newer jumpers who haven't really thought that through.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[tdog 0]

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Always carry a knife . . . it's the emergency procedure for when you are all out of emergency procedures . . .

(I've seen a lot of bad rigging, but that's real bad).

NickD

That's gotta be a nugget

You beat me too it...

I copied the post into my clipboard and was going to post it as a nugget......

(Wait, aren't nuggets for basejumper.com, or do they work here too?)

[jacketsdb23 49]

jp - you have a very valid point about jumpers learning and knowing about their gear. In the last 2 months I've seen some things by "newish" jumpers in the plane that make me want to vomit. The overall lack of knowledge of gear is frightening.

To the OP - Thank God you didn't have to use that mess. Take this as an opportunity to learn as much as possible.

And to those of you who cut-away perfectly good mains for fun (no - not those of you with 3 canopies)....lets hope you don't have something like that for your reserve. There is nothing guaranteed about a reserve.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[jumper03 0]

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so to really throw some controversy in here...

If Germany had a 120 day repack cycle, instead of a one year cycle - this would have been caught much sooner.

Do you say that the main reason having 120s of reserve repack cycle in US that some riggers don't know how to assemble a reserve correctly?

well that was certainly a stretch of the imagination I didn't anticipate.

I was saying with more frequent inspection, more errors would be caught. But another poster rightly pointed out - more chance of other errors.

But on and I and R - do you disassemble the lines? I don't unless I find they are screwed up. So yes - shorter repack cycles would find assembly errors faster. Packing errors could be more frequent.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[point_code 0]

As an side note, if you really have only 100 jumps then your wing loadings are too high.

[diablopilot 2]

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Question.... Isn't it a riggers responsability to NOT pack a reserve for someone when it would be considered unsafe ie. 1.6 wingloading for someone with only 100 jumps?

I don't know. I'd say it's a personal decision for each rigger. I know when I was in gear sales I tried not to sell small canopies to newer jumpers but people will try to tell you whatever you want to hear, and both companies I worked for lost sales because of it. Fortunately they didn't mind not helping someone towards their demise.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[bodypilot1 0]

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I have since my 38th jump when I watched my rigger at the time assemble and pack my reserve.

Every jumper wasn't a Bookkeeper for a gear store like you were either, that had the rigger packing on the other side of the wall.....
Most jumpers trust that they are having a rigger, who is a rigging professional, to pack the reserve correctly, and dont want to spend any extra time hanging out at the dz except to jump. Every jumper should get to know the gear that saves them, but most dont have the time to become a rigger, nor want to.
Find a rigger you trust by getting to know them well.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[diablopilot 2]

Wondered if you'd bring that up. I didn't start working there till more than 6 months after I started jumping (around 130 jumps), and the first repack I had done as an employee (and incidentally the first one I did) was my third on the rig.

And I agree, most jumpers don't want to become a rigger, and neither do I really, but I DO want to know all that I can about the stuff I'm putting on my back to save my life, so I do.

I just find it to be a sad state of affairs when jumpers spend more time researching their video cameras than they do their reserve systems, and who's maintaining them.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[strop45 0]

Out of interest, an aircraft mechanic here was recently convicted of manslaughter after he signed off some maintenance on a helicopter. He didn't actually supervise the work, didn't check it and signed it off. The helicopter crashed, the pilot died and the mechanic was convicted.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[piisfish 140]

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Of course, I didn't jump with a BASE rig out of airplanes, but I was the victim of a disastrous major rigging error that resulted in having a rig on my bag without a functioning reserve.

well it wasn't a BASE rig then.. BASE rigs don't have mains. They have a reserve

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[BMFin 0]

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These days, I witness the majority of jumpers hand gear over to anyone who is labeled "rigger", pay them some money and have no concern other than it not be wrinkly or late when they get it back, but not one of them could identify a safety stow, or verify that toggles are properly stowed on their reserve. They simply have faith in the "Black Magic" that their 40 to 80 dollars buys.

Yeah... Why do you even have this FAA rigger certification system ?

[davelepka 4]

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Every jumper wasn't a Bookkeeper for a gear store like you were either, that had the rigger packing on the other side of the wall.....

I've never worked in a gear store, but when I bought my first rig I insisted on being present for the assembly and pack job. This wasn't for lack of trust, but for lack of information.

At the time I did not have a detailed understanding of a reserve system, and seeing as I was going to own and be responsible for the care of a rig, this was something I needed to know.

Since then, I have had a handful of repacks I have not been present for, but it's rare. I trust my rigger, but at the same time I've got an hour or so two or three times year to hang out with the guy and 'observe'.

Additionally, any time my rig needs dis-assembled, I'm the one who puts it back together. I'd rather do the work myself, and have my rigger inspect it. It's two pairs of eyes on the job, and I like the redundancy.

It's the lack of this attitude that (I think) JP is lamenting. Just like tandems have turned the students into passengers, it seems that skydiving in general has turned new 'skydivers' into 'jumpers'. These people show up, jump, and that's it. No packing, no furthering education, no personal responsibility.

[piisfish 140]

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It's the lack of this attitude that (I think) JP is lamenting. Just like tandems have turned the students into passengers, it seems that skydiving in general has turned new 'skydivers' into 'jumpers'. These people show up, jump, and that's it. No packing, no furthering education, no personal responsibility.

and some people regret the time prior to Skydivers, the era of Parachutists

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Nick 0]

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Every jumper wasn't a Bookkeeper for a gear store like you were either, that had the rigger packing on the other side of the wall.....

You don't need to be involved in the business side of skydiving to be involved in your gear. I've watched a rigger re-pack my reserve (once I had asked if I could) and asked questions. I have dissassembled a rig for washing (washed it) then reassembled myself with my rigger present so that I could understand how everything worked.

All it takes is a bit of time, an interest and the cost of a couple of beers for your rigger.

Nick

Nick
Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW!

[hudsonderek 0]

We should be able to trust our riggers, but riggers are just people, and people are just human, so we're all apt to make mistakes. I say learn as much about packing reserves as you can, and watch your rigger pack it. I started doing that because I wanted to see how it was packed and get my riggers certificate one day, but just watching the packjob totally put my mind at ease when jumping. the riggers not jumping it, you are. if the rigger gets pissed that you watch, then find another rigger. I just got my rig back from a repack I didn't watch, it looked like shit (I posted on here about it) and didn't feel comfortable jumping it, so I popped it and took it out, the pull force was high, it had line twists and there still was a sales tag on the pilot chute with about a four inch string attached. That's the first and last time I'll have someone pack my rig without me watching. It behooves riggers to do a good job because it gives them a good reputation and more business, but remember, if they fuck up, it's your life. knowledge is power and peace of mind. safe jumping all!

[jimmytavino 16]

it's a sure bet that time spent watching your gear being assembled and/or repacked is of value...

great thing about this sport is that there is always something new , we can learn...

as to the O P ... good thing your main deployments all went well... HOW MANY of them, were Your own personal pack jobs, and how many of them were packjobs by others... i.e. "paid for" pack jobs...?????

It can be said that many jumpers avail themselves of pack jobs by others, out of convenience, or they are too busy to pack, or they have 2 rigs, or they are 'lazy', or they are staff... and in that regard, a crew of full time packers, works well for busy DZs.

but for the most part, one should learn ,know, and utilize the skill of packing often and frequently, and Especially, during their novice and intermediate stages of growth...
Instead lots of 'newtimers' pack just enough, in their training,,, often with the help of others, who wind up doing most of the tough stuff...( anybody can stow lines.), to complete TLOs or fill a proficiency card...

we should guard against folks at this stage of their careers,
simply crossing over to a "pay for your pack job" mentality.... regardless of the reason....

I 've always loved, packing... especially in the time of cheapos, and rounds,, I can flake a cheapo, like nobody's business... did many many student rigs early on. and most always pack my own mains...
I also activate my reserve handle at the time i hand my rig over to my rigger, and while not removing the canopy from the d bag, take a visual look at things... I carry a clean plastic bag with me, remove the main at the rings, and the gear to goes to the loft...

i've had the good fortune to have capable, qualified careful riggers available to me . A couple have packed reserves which i had to deploy, and when I did, my faith in them was reinforced...So now I don't have to watch over their shoulder. trust is a solid part of the package.

However if you're talking about new gear, a first rig, or an intermediate level skydiver, then by all means,,,, get interested.....
jt
a 3914 d 12122

[NewGuy2005 53]

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jp - you have a very valid point about jumpers learning and knowing about their gear. In the last 2 months I've seen some things by "newish" jumpers in the plane that make me want to vomit.

Could you elaborate so this newish jumper does not make similar mistakes?

[fcajump 164]

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Additionally, any time my rig needs dis-assembled, I'm the one who puts it back together. I'd rather do the work myself, and have my rigger inspect it. It's two pairs of eyes on the job, and I like the redundancy.

When (re)assembling reserves or PEP's I will usually do the complete assemble process and then put it asside and do another rig. Then when I pickup the first rig to do the final I@R, I approach it as an unknown system (i.e. trusting nothing about it).

If I don't have a second set of eye's to check my work, I find that this makes a good procedural substitute.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...