Suicide

[kkeenan 14]

This is a purely hypothetical question, so don't anyone break down my door and put me in a straightjacket. I'm interested to hear what folks here think of this -

Is it possible to make a rational decision to end one's life, or is that, by definition, an irrational decision thus requiring the person to be restrained from any action ?

Kevin

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Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[wmw999 2,446]

I think given the right circumstances it can be quite rational. For me, most of them involve painful and incurable medical conditions.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[unformed 0]

Euthanasia would be an example of a rational decision to end one's own life, although I know for a fact there are those that disagree with me.

This ad space for sale.

[thegreekone 0]

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I think given the right circumstances it can be quite rational. For me, most of them involve painful and incurable medical conditions.

Wendy W.

My best friend in grad school committed suicide. I was closer to him than anybody and I never saw it coming. Sure, he could get stressed or down, but who didn't, it was THAT kind of place. That year there were 2 suicides and I guy who walked away from everything; school, wife, family, the whole enchilada. IN the end it's hard to know another's pain and or their capacity for dealing with it.

I always felt like people never dealt with that, they just appropriated it as a badge of honor or martyrdom or something. It was a sad final year.

[karenmeal 0]

I think that the only time one could make a rational decision to end their life would be when facing a painful, terminal disease. Either that, or a severe loss of quality of life due to some sort of severe handicap like being paralyzed from the neck down, personally I don't think I would ever want to live that way.

For people suffering from severe depression I don't think they are truly capable of making a rational decision about suicide. I think it is kind of the nature of the illness that they are literally unable to visualize a happy future where their quality of life is improved. I've lost a really good friend to suicide, it was such a waste of an absolutely wonderful person who I know could have had a beautiful and fulfilling life if he had gotten appropriate help.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[cocheese 0]

Yes it is possible. Everything is possible.

What would you think of someone who just did it because they were so curious of the other side ;Having no issues with life, just ready for the next level. I can respect that, maybe if they've done almost everything in life.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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I think given the right circumstances it can be quite rational. For me, most of them involve painful and incurable medical conditions.

Wendy W.

We had a long time, old-school jumper choose that solution a year ago due to a medical condition. I still don't understand her choice even thou I know what the reasons were.

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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[gmittar 0]

Not in the same genre as suicide, but people give their lives for causes they deeply believe in fairly frequently. I think that's a rational decision and I think many times the person knows their life will end because of it.

|>.<|
Seriously, W.T.F. mate?

[RhondaLea 4]

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This is a purely hypothetical question, so don't anyone break down my door and put me in a straightjacket. I'm interested to hear what folks here think of this -

Is it possible to make a rational decision to end one's life, or is that, by definition, an irrational decision thus requiring the person to be restrained from any action ?

Kevin

I've known one person--and possibly two--who I believe did exactly that.

The rest were either "fuck you" suicides--most of which were failed attempts or would have been if things had worked out they way they planned--or by people who were so far beyond the end of their rope, so desperate, so unhappy, so depressed, that they were no longer rational enough to see another way out.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[jumpnjoecutaway 0]

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This is a purely hypothetical question, so don't anyone break down my door and put me in a straightjacket. I'm interested to hear what folks here think of this -

Is it possible to make a rational decision to end one's life, or is that, by definition, an irrational decision thus requiring the person to be restrained from any action ?


Coming form a person who has seen a lot of these. The answer is yes. I understand the terminals and the lesser quality of life, but it's the young ones that just need someone to understand their situation and are afraid to ask for help that make me sad.

I make a living of cleaning up after such situations. Sad as that is, I see it alot.

Westside is the best side!

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[micro 0]

IMO it can only be defined as irrational.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[cloudseeker2001 0]

Yes, life is a choice. People who understand what freedom is and how to exercise true freedom can make a rational decision to end their life. But, a person can also choose happiness and love and live life to the highest degree. It is a love and hate relationship. Use choice theory and make it the best!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[freethefly 6]

I made 7 attempts due to depression brought on because I could not deal with contracting AIDS. My fears were irrational to say the least. In the end I got professional help. If or when I reach the end stage I fully plan on taking my own life and going the way I want to go, not the way this illness will take me. This is a rational decision that I have thought out clearly being of sound mind. I see no reason to lie in a hospital bed that will drain funds that could be used to help someone who does have a chance when my end result is death. I see it as purely selfish for some one to continue treating all the way to their death when their is no hope of recovery and life is nothing but pain and suffering.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[happythoughts 0]

Suffering is a valid reason. Physical or emotional.

There are some sorts of physical pain that you will never recover from. I have seen a person spend the last week of their life whacked out on morphine. It would have saved a lot of time and pain.

The dilemma is always emotional pain. People tend to regard it as "fixable". When a person commits suicide to end emotional pain, the response is, "They just needed help...".

[DoTheDrew 0]

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But, a person can also choose happiness and love and live life to the highest degree.

I agree with the first part of your statement, but happiness isn't something that can just be chosen. You can't order it off a drive through menu. There are those who wish upon wish to be happy, but circumstance prevents it. Not saying that makes any one suicidal, but I think its something less trivial than a simple choice.

[karenmeal 0]

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The dilemma is always emotional pain. People tend to regard it as "fixable". When a person commits suicide to end emotional pain, the response is, "They just needed help...".

Maybe sometimes all the help in the world won't "fix" someone. But they atleast need to try and exhaust all their options. That is all that I would ask of a friend. The tricky thing is, it's the nature of depression to not see those viable options, or to assume that they won't work. If you had cancer you would want to exhaust all your options. You wouldn't try chemotherapy for a month and tell your Doctor that you just didn't think it was going to get rid of your cancer. You would go through an operation, you would take your chemo, you would get radiation, and you would get on tamoxifen or something for the next however many years to beat that fucking cancer!

I don't really think depression is that different.. so you go to one Doctor get some therapy and it doesn't work.. go to another Doctor, try some medicine, some different therapy.. enlist your family/friends as helpers to research how you can get rid of your depression! Get a team of people to help you out! It's not something that needs to be dealt with shamefully. It generally can be fixed, or can be made somewhat better.

If I had a friend who had been battling severe depression and had really really tried to get rid of it.. a good solid, respectable effort.. and they still wanted to end their life, what can you say? Atleast they tried, at that point you may have to accept that it is their life to do as they please.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[Greene 0]

Agree with you on your first point.

Your second point just might be one of the most bizarre responses I have ever read.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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But, a person can also choose happiness and love and live life to the highest degree.

I agree with the first part of your statement, but happiness isn't something that can just be chosen. You can't order it off a drive through menu. There are those who wish upon wish to be happy, but circumstance prevents it. Not saying that makes any one suicidal, but I think its something less trivial than a simple choice.

I didn't say it was trivial, simple or easy! Read Peck, Fromm, Tolstoy, Plato......These guys are heavy reading.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Muenkel 0]

At the root of suicide I believe is a loss of hope.

I personally do not condone suicide under any circumstances. Fortunately though I have never faced that temptation.

I also believe that illness, depression, etc. can take away a person's coping skills and ability to make a truly informed decision. I believe in these cases, the individual truly believes that suicide is their only answer.

Unless we have actually fully been in the individual's shoes, I think it makes it hard for us to form any opinion.

Chris

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Chris

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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I don't really think depression is that different.. so you go to one Doctor get some therapy and it doesn't work.. go to another Doctor, try some medicine, some different therapy.. enlist your family/friends as helpers to research how you can get rid of your depression! Get a team of people to help you out! It's not something that needs to be dealt with shamefully. It generally can be fixed, or can be made somewhat better.

Yes, but true depression leaves one too apathetic to follow these steps.

I had a teacher in high school that went through a bout of depression so severe that her therapist had to work her back into life with a single goal for many days...to wake up and put lip stick on. That was all. That was all she could handle.

Multiple-step goals are meaningless to the very severly depressed; they lose concern and hope before step '2'.

It's hard to understand, but in the depressed mind, if the magical light switch to turn on happiness instead of sorrow is across the room, the severly depressed mind may not allow the body to get out of bed to flip the switch.

It is tragic.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[Muenkel 0]

Very true ACME. Someday people will understand that true depression is an illness and not just a mood swing.

Chris

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Chris

[Michele 1]

Jaye, well said. Thanks for that. It was a great thing that your teacher had a therapist, and was able to reach out to her.

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At the root of suicide I believe is a loss of hope.

I personally do not condone suicide under any circumstances. Fortunately though I have never faced that temptation.

I also believe that illness, depression, etc. can take away a person's coping skills and ability to make a truly informed decision. I believe in these cases, the individual truly believes that suicide is their only answer.

Unless we have actually fully been in the individual's shoes, I think it makes it hard for us to form any opinion.

It's hard to describe, the inability to think normally. I call it going 23...whereas the normal mind will take A+B+C=D, the clinically depressed mind takes A_93+47-Q[72%+free]-1=23. And we think 23 is identical to D.

Unless one understands the clinical aspect - the actual medical side - to this illness, one won't understand how difficult it is to get up and flip the happy switch. We don't deserve to be happy...it's just a tease, it's not real. The only thing real is the pain, the self-hatred, the agony of knowing I will live with this mind and this view for ever. And we don't think how it will hurt those around us; we actually believe it's a relief for them; they no longer have to worry about how we are, we are no longer a burden, and we will be releasing them from our badness so they won't suffer because of us any longer.

And once a person gets to the Dr., and starts the medication, it can take up to 6 weeks to see results. Often, the meds first tried are not the right ones, and almost certainly not the right dose. So then the 6 week trial period starts again.

And you can't start insight therapy until you're stable, or at least more stable than you've been for a while. That sort of therapy starts after you've learned better coping mechanisms, and have found a drug and the right dose (sometimes a combination of meds), and often have gone through at least one round of 6 weeks.

What is a reasonable attempt? How long should one try? I don't know the answer, but it's the same idea as skydiving...don't go in without all handles pulled. And sometimes, it takes an awful lot to find the handles...

Casual attitudes toward suicide is deadly. Cocheese stated something earlier in this thread (I think it's Cocheese, I might be wrong...). I paled when I read it. Not because of what it says...because that's something I used to say, in my teens and early 20's...I used to say "don't be upset if I suicide. I just want to know what comes next." No-one - including me - realized that it was a dangerous mindset...that I was deep in clinical depression, and that to even consider the possibility of suicide indicated a severe crisis and that significant help was needed. I didn't receive the help until I was in my mid-30's, and still I battle it.

WHile I am not sick, I can't see suicide as an option. When I am depressed, I see it as clearly as I see this keyboard.

Here's the deal, imho. If someone has passed the point of no return in a medical non-brain illness, the choice is theirs to do with the rest of their life as they see fit. If a person is depressed, suicide is the wrong answer, no matter how pretty it seems at the time. As I've said before on these boards, I'll say again...if you are considering suicide, take the time, PM me, and I'll do everything I can do to help you. Reach out, one more time. I've been there, and I've made it back. I will do everything I can to help you.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Muenkel 0]

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Jaye, well said. Thanks for that. It was a great thing that your teacher had a therapist, and was able to reach out to her.


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At the root of suicide I believe is a loss of hope.

I personally do not condone suicide under any circumstances. Fortunately though I have never faced that temptation.

I also believe that illness, depression, etc. can take away a person's coping skills and ability to make a truly informed decision. I believe in these cases, the individual truly believes that suicide is their only answer.

Unless we have actually fully been in the individual's shoes, I think it makes it hard for us to form any opinion.

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It's hard to describe, the inability to think normally. I call it going 23...whereas the normal mind will take A+B+C=D, the clinically depressed mind takes A_93+47-Q[72%+free]-1=23. And we think 23 is identical to D.

Unless one understands the clinical aspect - the actual medical side - to this illness, one won't understand how difficult it is to get up and flip the happy switch. We don't deserve to be happy...it's just a tease, it's not real. The only thing real is the pain, the self-hatred, the agony of knowing I will live with this mind and this view for ever. And we don't think how it will hurt those around us; we actually believe it's a relief for them; they no longer have to worry about how we are, we are no longer a burden, and we will be releasing them from our badness so they won't suffer because of us any longer.

And once a person gets to the Dr., and starts the medication, it can take up to 6 weeks to see results. Often, the meds first tried are not the right ones, and almost certainly not the right dose. So then the 6 week trial period starts again.

And you can't start insight therapy until you're stable, or at least more stable than you've been for a while. That sort of therapy starts after you've learned better coping mechanisms, and have found a drug and the right dose (sometimes a combination of meds), and often have gone through at least one round of 6 weeks.

What is a reasonable attempt? How long should one try? I don't know the answer, but it's the same idea as skydiving...don't go in without all handles pulled. And sometimes, it takes an awful lot to find the handles...

Casual attitudes toward suicide is deadly. Cocheese stated something earlier in this thread (I think it's Cocheese, I might be wrong...). I paled when I read it. Not because of what it says...because that's something I used to say, in my teens and early 20's...I used to say "don't be upset if I suicide. I just want to know what comes next." No-one - including me - realized that it was a dangerous mindset...that I was deep in clinical depression, and that to even consider the possibility of suicide indicated a severe crisis and that significant help was needed. I didn't receive the help until I was in my mid-30's, and still I battle it.

WHile I am not sick, I can't see suicide as an option. When I am depressed, I see it as clearly as I see this keyboard.

Here's the deal, imho. If someone has passed the point of no return in a medical non-brain illness, the choice is theirs to do with the rest of their life as they see fit. If a person is depressed, suicide is the wrong answer, no matter how pretty it seems at the time. As I've said before on these boards, I'll say again...if you are considering suicide, take the time, PM me, and I'll do everything I can do to help you. Reach out, one more time. I've been there, and I've made it back. I will do everything I can to help you.

Ciels-
Michele

And there folks is the answer to this entire thread. If any of you know someone that resembles what Michele just described, then reach out quickly. They are contemplating suicide or have atleast struggled with the thought. As the saying goes, 'Suicide is a permanent fix to a temporary problem'. There most definitely is help out there. I'm not saying the journey is easy, but it is worth it.

Two things I would like to add. Another discouraging thing to starting meds is the chance of allergy. This is not uncommon and when allergy exists to a specific med, it usually means you are allergic to a family of meds. This does not mean that there is not a good med out there for a person who needs it. The second point I wish to make is that I respectfully disagree with Michele in regard to suicide as an option when someone is terminally ill. Yes, it is their choice and I will not judge. It just goes against my faith.

Please, if you see yourself in this thread, take Michele's advice. Don't hesitate. When Michele offers herself, she's not just giving lip service. Trust me, she's been there for me...not suicide...but other things.

This is probably one of the most valuable threads on this website. I thank the original author.

Chris

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Chris

[freeflail 0]

Let's consider a motivation other than physical or mental illness - think of yourself, for whatever reason, being sentenced to a long prison term.
Having lived a relatively happy and free life, and knowing the types of horrors that occur within the American prison system, what length of sentence would you consider a neutral balance between the value of your life during and after the incarceration vs. the misery you would experience while incarcerated?
Do you feel that life, no matter how miserable, in prison is still worth living for what it is (even in the case of a life sentence,) or do you think that the maladjustment you would experience after your release would even make a 'return to society' a life not worth living.
If you can come up with a number for an even balance (a term in which the negative value of the time spent behind bars would be equal to the value of your expected remaining life,) then factor in the effect that your suicide would have on your loved ones (and how much you care about that effect,) and see if you can come up with another number.

[McDuck 0]

There are a few here who have grasped the seeming original intent of this thread's author, and that is "Is it possible to make a rational decision to end one's life"? Regardless of the volume of insightful and well meaning information provided, Cochese said it best: anything is possible. Too many people get caught up in that vein of thought that believes you have to be certifiably insane to want to end your life, or not be at a place, emotionally, where your faculties are doing you the most justice. While I won't be so presumptious as to say something along the lines of "the bottom line is...", I will say that nobody can know all the circumstances of every life on this planet. Along those lines of thought, it is safe to say that yes, that type of decision can be made rationally at some point in some lives. Is it the best decision for a person to make? Who's to say? I think the social stigma of being viewed as insane or incapable of rational thought if thoughts of suicide are entertained is not entirely fair.

Kevin - Sonic Beef #5 - OrFun #28
"I never take myself too seriously, 'cuz everybody know fat birds don't fly." - FLC
Online communities: proof that people never mature much past high school.