RSL

[Megatron 0]

The more I think about it the more I begin to convince myself that an RSL isnt always a good thing to have.

The basic reason is that once you cut away a main you life depends solely on that reserve deploying and deploying right. Given the plethora of situations requiring a cutaway, I could foresee quite a few of them leaving you in a less-than-perfect body position for reserve deployment, what if this causes your reserve to malfunction, or even worse, get entangled with your main...well now you're fucked!

Without going into specific hypothetical examples, an RSL will force a reserve deployment at an instant that is indiscriminate of what is going on around you. Thats seems like a very one-dimensional solution to a multi-dimensional problem.
Even if I cut away at 1500 ft, given how quickly reserves are built/packed to open, I would rather give myself an extra 2 seconds to set up at least somewhat of a decent body position then have my reserve deploy when Im head-low and on my back into a ball of tangles lines, for instance.
I know that the first priority is to pull, then pull at the right altitude, and only then pull stable. But that seems like a very rigid doctrine and generally applies better to main deployment in my opinion. When applying to EP's, I think it should be approached on a case by case basis.

All of this is just a bunch of crap floating around in my head so if anyone can prove me wrong by all mean tell me that none of what I described is physically probable. Also, can anyone think of a situation where an RSL undoubtably saved a life??

EDIT: if you search "Parachute accident - Spadochron" on youtube, you'll get videos of a bunch of different mals & cutaways. On each one, the jumper is unstable in the 1-2 seconds following a cutaway. Its my belief that had a reserve in deployed at that instant, it would increase the chances of a mal of the reserve.

[mnealtx 0]

A search for "RSL caused entanglement" would probably answer your question for you.

Whether you use an RSL or not is, obviously, a personal choice. However, if RSL's were the 'death trap' that you seem to imply in your post, you would see a lot more incident reports discussing it.

Edit to add: A search for the terms above found a post from 2004 talking about a 25:4 statistic (from USPA) in regards to RSL saves/deaths.

Also found this from our very own billvon.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Hellis 0]

i think there is more situations where the RSL will help you than create a mal.
even if you are in a spinning main-mal and get very unstable when you cut away, the RSL and reserve will deploy so quickly that you will most likely only have one or two linetwists.
thats how i would think most cases would end up.

but in some cases it might make things worse.
entanglement shouldnt be possible, should it?
if you cut away the main, it should be "gone" by the time the reserve comes out, unless you are entangled in the main that is.

i think all things that are supposed to make you safer have a smal chance of working the wrong way.
example:
seatbelts in a car, they are supposed to help you but in some cases people have survived because they didnt wear the seatbelt.
airbags: if you have your arms infront of the steeringwheel while you crash you might break your arms, which might not have happend without the arirbag.

but still i think we all can agree that seatbelts and airbags is safer than not having them.

i dont have any malfunction experience so i could be wrong.

[jimmytavino 16]

never have used an RSL

but have done a few cutaways....

Lots of times people may forget to initiate the proper body position,,, BEFORE cutting away...

especially novice and intermediate skydivers..
they all get so carried away with...
look look grab peel pull pull that they forget to anticipate the release of the risers,,, and just HOW their Bodies will come away from it...
A release from 3 rings,,, works best if one, gets their legs and feet Back & Up, i.e.... Arches!!!
so that they go basically belly to earth just prior to the introduction of the reserve pilot chute...... whether THAT occurs by virtue of the RSL or by pulling silver...
Tuck up or get your knees UP,,, and sure!!!! it's a LOT more likely that you'll roll or pivot or Tumble,,, Just at that point when you want your reserve to go straight UP,, unimpeded by your body your helmet ( cameras) or any part of your harness/container...
Adherance to establishing the right body position

will go a LONG way to limit, tumbling after the chop....

Another concern is that Momentary UH Uh Uh UH !!!!! factor,,, where by there is hesitation,, ( Not Pilot chute hesitation ),, but stress induced
delay.... between when the main leaves and the reserve is pulled.....
depending on how fast the jumper is descending while UNDER the mal.... that delay can eat up HUndreds of feet in a hurry,,

I'd rather see a pilot chute be self-triggered regardless of body postion, At A LOW altitude than to see someone fail to react quickly enough themselves,,, to get the silver handle out..While it's never wise to be REALLY low,, without having already dealt with a malfunctioned main,,,sometimes jumpers DO find themselves cutting away UNDER a grand....
we can run outta time REAL fast...in that sort of situation...

there are many pros and cons...

however for students, or 'casual' skydivers, or those whose reflexes are slowing down.....
an RSL could be a good idea...
If one chooses Not to use an RSL.. Best to pack carefully, pull a bit higher, anticipate keenly, and react properly in order to justify the decision to forego this helpful tool....
...and Think Hard about the Pre-cutaway body positon..as a foundational step in your EPs.....

jmy

[chuckakers 425]

You make some intelligent observations, and there are certainly disciplines in skydiving that don't work well with an RSL (or skyhook, for that matter). CReW and video work come to mind as a couple activities where an RSL can be a bigger problem than a life saver, but......

statistically, RSL's save many more lives than they have ever cost. Based on the stats, it appears that skydivers are much more likely to fail to get a reserve out before running into the planet than they are to have a problem from a reserve opening while unstable.

Keep in mind that unlike your main, reserve parachutes are designed for quick, reliable deployments, even in less than ideal conditions. I have personally opened my reserve in all kinds of body positions and configurations and never had so much as line twists (thanks PD and my riggers).

Think about the TSO process. Mandatory drop tests are conducted using dummies, which often tumble and twirl as they fall away from the aircraft. And yet these tests "save" the dummy time after time.

My advise? Don't worry so much about your reserve deploying properly and use an RSL or Skyhook unless you are conducting activities that aren't RSL friendly. You will have the statistics on your side.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Suggest that you surf the incidents and compare the rate of deaths from "reserve open too low" and "entangled with reserve". My suspicion is that you will find that an RSL is a good thing. As I understand it, the Skyhook deploys the reserve so fast that it actually decreases the potential for entanglement.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[Sletzer 3]

Jimmy, thanks for mentioning body position. I was taught to pull, pull, then arch. Never thought about arching then pulling. Makes sense though. At least it gives me something else to think about.

I will be kissing hands and shaking babies all afternoon. Thanks for all your support! *bows*

SCS #8251

[ozzy13 0]

watch this video. In the middle of it their are a bunch of mals in less then perfect body pistons .They all lived and most have rsl. Some didn't the mals are about 12 minutes in

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=guestpass&id=64v6k

on this next video the rsl save this kids life

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=guestpass&id=a652x

its up to you weather you like them or not

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

However low/no reserve pulls continue to make up a significant portion of our fatalities.

Back in the day no pull/low pull incidents were the largest percentage of fatalities. In recent years they account for only 7% of fatalities. The reason for this turn around is always up for debate but I am sure the increased use of AAD’s and RSL’s has a lot to do with it.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[tkhayes 348]

search dropzone.com for RSL threads - this has already been beaten to death.

If you are spinning, once you cutaway, your body is no longer spinning, it is going in a straight line. centrifugal force, plain and simple.

Pull the friggin' cutaway/reserve handle and stop worrying about it. Any wiggling, tumbling, spinning that happens AFTER you have pulled the cutaway handle is YOUR OWN DOING......not from the spinning canopy that you just left in the sky.

Whether you are face to earth or belly to earth, you reserve pilot chute launches into clean air. lay there and let it do its job.

as others have said, if RSLs were so dangerous, we would have banned them, but they have saves countless lives. There is no faster way to get a reserve over your head (other than a skyhook perhaps) to get a reserve out and over your head.

I especially like the people that say "I don't use an RSL, that's dangerous.....but I got a Skyhook!"

I've been wearing one for 27 years, 7100 jumps, and perhaps 25-30 malfunctions, so my experience is far better than any theory that people may come up with. I had a reserve over my head every time, almost always due to the RSL.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

especially novice and intermediate skydivers..
they all get so carried away with...
look look grab peel pull pull that they forget to anticipate the release of the risers,,, and just HOW their Bodies will come away from it...

Until they've experienced one, it's difficult to anticipate anything.

[jimmytavino 16]

yes.. i see your point. we don't become experienced,,, Til we experience something...

But understanding THAT there WILL be a certain noticable acceleration, mostly down, but depending on "throw", sometimes down and sidewards....

..can go a long way to Expecting such a phenomenon..... and properly 'riding it out' as the reserve ripcord is pulled.

That's what i meant by saying it's helpful to anticipate that momentum change,, at the instant of the breakaway.

jmy
A 3914

[popsjumper 2]

Re-think that Adam.
You were taught to do what after deploying the reserve?

Hint: Go immediately to the ______________ body position.

Which, by the way, includes a good arch.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Megatron 0]

Thanks for all the replies. I guess the problem I have with it is that in a sport where being in control of the situation is so critical to your survival, an RSL actually gives you less control over whats about to happen next. That's just something I'm not sure I'm comfortable with. However, based on all your replies it seems that in that particular scenario the action that RSL forces seems to be the best choice in most cases and close to that in almost all others. Certainly, at my experience level I think an RSL is a must and I had little intention of not using one even before I posted this.
Can anyone think of/know of a situation when an RSL caused a major reserve malfunction, not including line twist?

[BUBLHED 0]

I don't know of one specifically but one way that can happen is if when cutting away, only the rsl side riser disconnects. You would still have the main attached by one riser and a good chance of an entanglement. Using a system with a collins lanyard helps to solve this problem by helping to ensure the non rsl riser disconnects. This is an important aspect of the Skyhook system. That is basically a RSL with a Collins lanyard, and a faster reserve deployment system. I believe Mirages DRX system is doing the same basic thing. With either of these systems even under a violently spinning mal the reserve is out so fast that it SHOULD prevent the problems you are concearned with in your original post. Don't forget to arch as taught though. All in all for ME a mard system (Skyhook,Drx) is a worthwhile addition to my gear, although as of yet discounting student jumps I have not used a rsl. I am currently saving for my Skyhook equiped V3.

ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!

[Megatron 0]

yeah, from what Ive read a skyhook definitely seems like a more sophisticated system. They are only available on Vectors, right? Is there any way I can get them set up in my voodoo??

[jsaxton 0]

Ths only problem I've ever seen where an RSL could cause a major malfunction is a misrouted RSL release clasp that interferes with the 3ring system. I've caught that on jumpers a couple of times.

[Megatron 0]

thanks! wrote that down in my "stuff to do so as not to get killed skydiving" list

[BUBLHED 0]

"stuff to do so as not to get killed skydiving" list



Skyhook is available on Javelin also I believe. Mirage has there own system called DRX coming out soon that is pretty much the same thing. Most likely changed just enough to not be a patent violation. UPT has other Manufacturers liscensing the Skyhook but as of yet I haven't heard anyone say which ones.

ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!

[jsaxton 0]

Quote

thanks! wrote that down in my "stuff to do so as not to kill myself skydiving" list

Fixed it for you

[towerrat 0]

I'm always amazed at the guys who have a whole bunch of nothing as far as experience, yet seem to have read everything. It's fantastic that you are paying attention, and I'm really glad that you are. However, sometimes it's better to shut up and learn something. This isn't directed at you personally, I'm just making a point. I have 19 reserve rides in my 5,000 jumps. I have rides with and without an rsl. The end result is always the same...............I cutaway and fire my reserve; I've had rides with plenty of altitude to spare and I've had rides where a few seconds could have meant my life.The end result is always the same, When it all boils down to it that rsl will not make a huge difference unless you really need it.

Cut away, pull reserve. If you are doing it differently you are being it a fool.The whole getting stable thing is for bullshitters and fools.

Maybe those of you that are taking that time between when you cut away and pull your reserve are just that much better than me......... whatever.............. new guy.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Regarding the mention above of mis-routing an RSL. See this for an example.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3226891#3226891

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[BUBLHED 0]

Your post sure does sound like it is directed at me personally.

You may want to re-read what I have said. I never said wait to get stable after a cut away. I said arch as you were taught. Do you somehow find arching during and immediately following a cut away a bad thing?

"Whatever .....New guy" my FJC was in 1986 yep new guy.

I agree that a rsl wont make a huge differance unless you really need it, but isn't that what were talking about here? If you really need it I truely hope that you have it.

Point is an rsl has the potential to save you more than to hurt you, especially a mard system. IMO

And yes by the way I am well read.

ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!

[The_Don 0]

Quote

search dropzone.com for RSL threads - this has already been beaten to death.

If you are spinning, once you cutaway, your body is no longer spinning, it is going in a straight line. centrifugal force, plain and simple.

Pull the friggin' cutaway/reserve handle and stop worrying about it. Any wiggling, tumbling, spinning that happens AFTER you have pulled the cutaway handle is YOUR OWN DOING......not from the spinning canopy that you just left in the sky.

Whether you are face to earth or belly to earth, you reserve pilot chute launches into clean air. lay there and let it do its job.

as others have said, if RSLs were so dangerous, we would have banned them, but they have saves countless lives. There is no faster way to get a reserve over your head (other than a skyhook perhaps) to get a reserve out and over your head.

I especially like the people that say "I don't use an RSL, that's dangerous.....but I got a Skyhook!"

I've been wearing one for 27 years, 7100 jumps, and perhaps 25-30 malfunctions, so my experience is far better than any theory that people may come up with. I had a reserve over my head every time, almost always due to the RSL.

That's good enough for me.
I'll stick with my RSL.

Thanks for the post.

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[jsaxton 0]

I've also seen the release catch actually CONNECTED to the large ring