aresye 0 #1 December 29, 2008 Skydivers should make it more of a habit on group jumps to clear their airspace with a barrel roll. There has been a couple times in which on a big way, I've performed a barrel roll and found someone tracking above me. When routinely performed, a barrel roll is fast enough that you don't lose that much altitude. I'd rather sacrafice an additional 500ft in order to prevent a freefall collision upon opening.Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #2 December 29, 2008 Hmmmmm, before telling everyone what they should do maybe you should do a search and learn what a debatable point this is. Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #3 December 29, 2008 Quote Hmmmmm, before telling everyone what they should do maybe you should do a search and learn what a debatable point this is. Yup! Prime example of why one SHOULDN'T take ~Internet Advise~. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #4 December 29, 2008 QuoteSkydivers should make it more of a habit on group jumps to clear their airspace with a barrel roll. There has been a couple times in which on a big way, I've performed a barrel roll and found someone tracking above me. When routinely performed, a barrel roll is fast enough that you don't lose that much altitude. I'd rather sacrafice an additional 500ft in order to prevent a freefall collision upon opening. What kind of moron is letting you on big-ways?Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #5 December 29, 2008 Let me see.... - When you do a barrell roll, you stop watching below which is your responsability - when you do a barrell roll, unless you are extremely skilled, you will loose speed in your track - when you do a barrell roll, unless you are extremely skilled, you will probably alter your heading, making it more difficult for the people above you to stay away from you - when you do a barrell roll, unless you are extremely skilled, you will not know if that spec you saw while at an angle and turning is actually above you, or above and to the side So... why is it such a good idea again?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #6 December 29, 2008 He sounded cool ? no ? smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #7 December 29, 2008 Aresye, it's been discussed many times before. The general consensus from freeflyers is that barrel rolls before pulling is a good idea and the general consensus from bigway RW flyers is that it's a horrible idea. You can do a search to read the why's and why nots. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #8 December 29, 2008 >Skydivers should make it more of a habit on group jumps to clear their airspace with a barrel roll. If you do so, you will likely be cut from whatever camp/bigway you are doing for endangering other jumpers. If you have time/altitude to do a barrel roll, use that time/altitude to get further away from other jumpers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #9 December 29, 2008 QuoteSkydivers should make it more of a habit on group jumps to clear their airspace with a barrel roll. When I'm on a jump I want the other players to do one thing at the end...track fast and far. The breakoff should be predicable with no surprises. If I saw somebody doing a barrel roll I'd be pretty confused and annoyed. It would attract my attention, and distract me from my primary task, which is flying fast and far. If you have any intention of doing a barrel roll at break off make sure to fully discuss it with the organizer prior to the jump. As others have said, on many big way's it'll get you cut in a heartbeat.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #10 December 29, 2008 OMG - when I first opened the S&T forum, and saw right on the top of it, THIS thread title - - - I nearly busted through my screen! Glad to see all you other guys are already all "on top of" this! Man, it gets FRUSTRATING every time you see something you've debated over and over again, it seems for YEARS (like the 45' "rule" just to open up another example/instance ) ...yet it gets thrown back out by some low-timer (no personal insult intended Arsye) -as if it is "fresh", and yet too suddenly authoritative FACT somehow all of a sudden again! - - - Argghhhh!! Why is it, this happens, and how can we possibly help stem the ever ebbing and flowing tide otherwise just re-circulating, of MISINFORMATION like this? coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mik 2 #11 December 29, 2008 Quote Why is it, this happens, and how can we possibly help stem the ever ebbing and flowing tide otherwise just re-circulating, of MISINFORMATION like this? Maybe the appearance of 'misinformation' on this site is not always a bad thing. There have been many responses to the original post offering alternative views together with explanations. As such this provides a learning opportunity eg for new jumpers. When I started jumping and had about 20 jumps I was given some quiet advice by someone who I assumed was highly experienced. When I saw him with his leg in plaster and on crutches a few days later I asked about his experience level and found he had even fewer jumps than me and had hurt himself on landing. That made me think carefully about who to accept advice from. At least when advice is offered on this forum, it is subject to challenge by some very experienced jumpers. *********************************************** I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surfbum5412 0 #12 December 30, 2008 QuoteLet me see.... - when you do a barrell roll, unless you are extremely skilled, you will loose speed in your track - when you do a barrell roll, unless you are extremely skilled, you will probably alter your heading, making it more difficult for the people above you to stay away from you - when you do a barrell roll, unless you are extremely skilled, you will not know if that spec you saw while at an angle and turning is actually above you, or above and to the side Remster, it's ok you cannot fly in different orientations...I forgive you. Stick to what you know; your belly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #13 December 30, 2008 QuoteWhy is it, this happens, and how can we possibly help stem the ever ebbing and flowing tide otherwise just re-circulating, of MISINFORMATION like this? This is and has been happening because "we" - used as loosely as I know how - are not doing our jobs. Misinformation comes from lack of information, and "we" aren't getting enough of it into people's heads. And when "we" don't, students and young jumpers don't have an understanding of the principles needed to make intelligent choices or create sound concepts. At the end of the day, it is understanding that keeps "us" alive, and understanding requires an abundance of raw, correct, and relevant information about the task at hand. That information - for whatever arguable reason - isn't getting passed along. The answer to your second question is actually quite simple. "We" need to focus on teaching "us" to understand the sport, not just perform it. I'll pitch in one sunset a month, starting with my pet peeve - gear knowledge. How 'bout you?Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #14 December 30, 2008 QuoteThere has been a couple times in which on a big way... What is your definition of a big-way? For flatflyers, on something like a 20-way, there are people next to you on breakoff. Most of the time, for 15+ jumpers, it may be a staged breakoff. There could be a second line of trackers following you while you are doing the gymnastics. You could be putting others in danger by changing altitude or course heading. I have been in jumps where there were assigned breakoff altitudes and opening altitudes. It is scary enough to know that four stages tracked off ahead of you without the fear of losing sight of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aresye 0 #15 December 30, 2008 For me, the biggest jumps I've been on have been 12-ways. A couple of them have been with a staggered breakoff. On one of the jumps, I found myself low on the formation. In fact because of my slip up I ended up so low that I was worried others couldn't see me. Well, maybe they could or couldn't. Regardless, when it came time to breakoff, I turned 180 degrees from my heading, which was watching the group, and I tracked as hard, and far as I could until it was almost time to deploy. I went into a barrel roll while still in a track, which isn't too hard, and if done correctly, you can still be in a good track the entire time, with little speed lost. It does not require super human skill. Plus, it helps you maintain a heading if done correctly. So anyway, I roll to clear my airspace before pulling, and there's a person still tracking above, and slightly behind me. If I had deployed, there would definitely have been a chance he could have struck me during the opening. I guess on the end it's really on a case by case basis. For me, I'll do a barrel roll if there's a chance that somebody lost track of me. Forgive the way my post originally came across. I can definitely see a barrel roll on large big ways being dangerous, and frowned upon. My situation just happened to occur on a 12-way. *Also, my OP was a reply to the Z-Hills fatality, for those of you that think I created this topic myself.Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #16 December 30, 2008 QuoteFor me, I'll do a barrel roll if there's a chance that somebody lost track of me. My previous reply discussing understanding has been well demonstrated. Logic be damned, Aresye, just make it up as you go along! Oh yeah...and go talk to an instructor.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #17 December 30, 2008 Quote OMG - when I first opened the S&T forum, and saw right on the top of it, THIS thread title - - - I nearly busted through my screen! Glad to see all you other guys are already all "on top of" this! Man, it gets FRUSTRATING every time you see something you've debated over and over again, it seems for YEARS (like the 45' "rule" just to open up another example/instance ) ...yet it gets thrown back out by some low-timer (no personal insult intended Arsye) -as if it is "fresh", and yet too suddenly authoritative FACT somehow all of a sudden again! - - - Argghhhh!! Why is it, this happens, and how can we possibly help stem the ever ebbing and flowing tide otherwise just re-circulating, of MISINFORMATION like this? I'm new to this site. Not all that experienced of a skydiver. I knew this was a bad idea from other threads. I really like the apparent lack of flames, clear explanations, and unanimous opinion about the bad idea in the original post. New guys will keep coming up with the same apparently good, but dangerous and idiotic ideas over and over again. (This applies to everything, not just skydiving) So, what's the 45' rule??"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #18 December 30, 2008 Once you meet these MINIMUM requirements: ---- cut here ---- Minimum experience required: 250 jumps, 50 jumps in the last 12 months, have been on at least a 20 way and have the ability to close 12th or later on a consistent basis. ---- cut here ---- I HIGHLY recommend the P3 BigWay Camp at Perris. Be sure to ask about what you should do i you go low before the first jump though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aresye 0 #19 December 30, 2008 I did a search on this topic, and there are skydivers who are a heck-of-a-lot more experienced than me, that swear by a barrel roll prior to deployment. So let's try and take this thread to a different level. Established: Performing a barrel roll prior to deployment on a big way is dangerous, frowned upon, and should only be attempted by experienced jumpers who know what they're doing. Now, would there be a scenario in which performing a barrel roll prior to deployment is recommended?Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #20 December 30, 2008 I can't think of one, especially on a big way. dude, you jump @ Elsinore, ask Mel and Doug Forth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #21 December 30, 2008 QuoteI can't think of one, especially on a big way. dude, you jump @ Elsinore, ask Mel and Doug Forth. My son once wanted to ride his bike in the rain. "no" "I'll wear a raincoat" "no" "...and stay on the sidewalk where it's safe." "no" "...and come home if it starts to lightning." "no" He planned on discussing it with me until he came up with a scenario where I would agree it was a good idea. This could be a long thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #22 December 30, 2008 QuoteI did a search on this topic, and there are skydivers who are a heck-of-a-lot more experienced than me, that swear by a barrel roll prior to deployment. Name one.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #23 December 30, 2008 >and there are skydivers who are a heck-of-a-lot more experienced than >me, that swear by a barrel roll prior to deployment. They might well be a good idea on tracking jumps. Heck, I know a few 4-way types who booty fly at breakoff for fun. But for survival, best to spend that time tracking predictably the best you can. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeffwxyz 0 #24 December 30, 2008 I jump at Elsinore and have jumped with Ben back in June. I recently was on a 6-way tracking dive, where the organizer wanted us to do a barrel roll before deploying. Several months ago, another organizer there, wanted us to do a barrel roll before deployment. It was long ago enough where I can't say for sure what type of jump it was. I do think it may have been a RW jump. I will not name people here because it is too easy for people to take something out of context and twist the words around to make somebody look bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #25 December 30, 2008 Its cool to be able to redefine physics.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
