Barrel rolls on big ways: Was - Fatality - Z-Hills, FL

[davelepka 4]

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I turned 180 degrees from my heading, which was watching the group, and I tracked as hard, and far as I could until it was almost time to deploy.

I roll to clear my airspace before pulling, and there's a person still tracking above, and slightly behind me.

This means you got smoked. Your 'as hard and far as I could' wasn't enough to outrun the guy who ended up over you. Spend less time thinking about a barrel role, and more time thinking about faster and furhter. A simple check over each shoulder as your track ends will clear your airspace, and allow you to maintain your direction and momentum.

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I went into a barrel roll while still in a track, which isn't too hard, and if done correctly, you can still be in a good track the entire time, with little speed lost. It does not require super human skill. Plus, it helps you maintain a heading if done correctly.

It's harder than you think. Until you can park yourself next to the base on a tracking dive, and complete the rotation in your slot, you're not doing exactly what you think you're doing.

I might feel clean as hell, but I guarantee that you're not doing what you think you're doing. Just for perspective, I've lead more tracking dives than you have jumps, and have seen many, many skilled skydivers blow a transition or rotation, and fall off the pace of the dive.

[Remster 30]

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Just for perspective, I've lead more tracking dives than you have jumps,

And Dave, to clarify some people's perspectives on tracking dives: Would you say a tracking dive is as flat and as fast as a get-out-of-dodge track?

Remster

[davelepka 4]

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Would you say a tracking dive is as flat and as fast as a get-out-of-dodge track?

Good point. Many tracking dives are flown at something less then flatest/fastest, making manuvering around during the dive than much easier.

The closer you get to your max track, the tougher it is to stay 'on track' while manuvering.

The more I think about it, 99% of all jumpers will loose something off of a max track by throwing a roll in there. Even guys who can hang with the tracking dives and be 100% all of the time will always be able to go faster/furhter by holding one orientation the entire time.

Another thing I think the OP is missing is that a barrel roll in a track is cool in a lot different situations. Smaller dives with just a few people, for example, are a great place to have a little fun on the way out. Freefly jumps where you can peel out of head down with a ton of airspeed and really open up a gap also provide a good oppertunity to play.

Guys who can really move, and just plain out run everyone else by a mile can also afford to toss a roll in there for sport.

Low timers, who don't have the speed or range yet don't need to be giving up one inch of distance for anything with more than four people in the air. Not only for the obvious reasons of greater separation, but the longer you can track in a straight line, the more time you have to tweak and refine your body position. You generally only get a short time to track at the end of every jump, and you need to make the most of it.

[tbrown 26]

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Aresye, it's been discussed many times before. The general consensus from freeflyers is that barrel rolls before pulling is a good idea and the general consensus from bigway RW flyers is that it's a horrible idea.

First of all, according to his profile, Aresye not only has low numbers, but has only been registered here since 3/28/2008. Does this disbarr him from raising an important issue ? I categorically object to brushing off newbies with "it's already been discussed", as for many of them, all sorts of things have plainly NOT been discussed and need to be. This is a vitally important topic, especially as two experienced skydivers had an opening collision just last week, killing one of them and injuring the other.

That said, I am of the belly flying camp that believes in tracking hard, face down, and watching out for those who might be below. Jan Meyers has spoken eloquently about how virtually all collisions on opening involved the upper jumper not seeing the one below until it was too late.

Your point on freeflyers doing so many barrel rolls is well taken too. I was on a tracking dive with only seven people last weekend and the FF organizer of this dive was emphatic about everyone doing a barrel roll. Now I respect this guy and wasn't going to get into a big argument over it, so I just quietly nodded my head and did my usual forty way face down track and got excellent seperation.

I HAVE been on some hybrids where the freeflyers have scared the living shit out of me with their so called "back tracking". As part of the belly base, I'd watch these people drop away vertically at 5500, while we'd hold the base 4 way to breakoff at 4500. Contrary to what I'd expected, I was horrified to see a bunch of clowns directly below, floating around on their backsides with shit eating grins on their faces. It's the main reason I won't jump on hybrids anymore, as I feel I simply can't trust people who won't get serious about tracking their asses off - face down.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[mdrejhon 8]

True bigways are 100-ways. Some people call 6 ways a big way, which it really is not. 20-ways define beginner big ways, but they are not nearly as complicated as a 100-way breakoff. On those size bigways, you cannot do a barrell roll...

For more information on what they teach at the Perris P3 bigway camps about tracking, please see jjcunniff's good post in this thread, and some good replies I made:

Tracking... (big-way, especially)
Must read stuff for big way newbies.

[wildcard451 0]

I love a good discussion like this in here, and not just bullshit flying left and right trying to one up each other.

I really hope everyone, young and old, new and experienced, reads dave's posts above, especially this thought:

"if you cannot lay beside the base in a tracking dive and roll in place, then your barrel roll is losing speed/changing angle"

Try it sometime. By god I love tracking and it is NOT as easy as people seem to think it is.

I can understand the divide between belly jumpers and FF on the whole barrel roll issue. On RW jumps, more than likely everyone is gonna be on the same hosizontal plane at breakoff, and the odds of someone being well above you in vertical levels is low enough that your efforts are best spend tracking your ass off as you have been taught to do.
On a FF dive, and even more so on larger tracking dives (15-20+) there is a much higher change of there being a vertical level issue where someone is tracking right over you.

Either way, it is our responsibility to ourselves and the other jumpers in the air to only perform those skills we are comfortable with on jumps (i.e., your first 30-way is not a good time to practice a new tracking style at breakoff) which includes not going on jumps that you don't have the skillset for.
Also, another good point here is to plan the dive and dive the plan. Doing "your own thing" during a jump when there has been an organized dive with contingency plans only complicates an already dangerous sport, adds confusion to everyone else, and in general is just poor form.

That's just my take on things. Granted I don't have 30 years or 10,00 jumps, but hey, if someone thinks I am wrong and would like to teach me a thing or two, let's hear it.

[aresye 0]

Well said tbrown. I must agree with some of the others in this discussion. Considering the nature of my post, even I am surprised at the amount of mature responses that have been posted. I think part of that is this topic, and its relevance to this recent fatality.

After thoroughly reading your responses, and some other topics on this subject, I have to say I've definitely learned something.

All I needed was a little light on the other side, and to see this topic from a different angle. I thought about opening collisions, and in the end, it's really the person above that is making the mistake. As long as you track hard, and far, and deploy when you say you are, there should be virtually no chance for a collision. Plus, you can go so much faster with your head looking down

I will start making it a habit of tracking hard, and save the barrel rolls for fun freefall manuevers.

Sorry to have stirred the pot a bit. I hope you can forgive this newbish thinking situation I have found myself in.

*On the bright side though, at least I'm not suggesting a toggle to untwist!

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[wildWilly 0]

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Aresye, it's been discussed many times before. The general consensus from freeflyers is that barrel rolls before pulling is a good idea and the general consensus from bigway RW flyers is that it's a horrible idea.

You can do a search to read the why's and why nots.

Dave

Having done big ways in both RW (60 ways) and VRW (20 ways)
I have never and would not do barrel rolls on RW big ways for the simple reason that I maintain visual contact with the people I am tracking beside. By keeping track of the people that are supposed to be around me I know if all is good. I still clear my airspace above before pulling.
When doing VRW big ways everyone on the jump knows and is told in the briefing to turn 180 from the centre while still HD and track.
This way everyone is tracking on their back for the first 5 or so seconds of the track so I can see if anyone is tacking above me, then flip to belly and track for the hills. This way we can keep track of everyone that is supposed to be around you.
When people throw themselves out of airplanes for fun we must be aware and alert to as much as possible of what is around us when it's time to save your life. Be aware and arrive alive.

Willy

growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional.

[dgskydive 0]

You have gotten a lot of good reasons why you shouldnt barrel roll at break off.

Your profile says you jump at Elsinore. Speak to Melanie and Hammo and Steve or Mark. I am sure they will agree that this is not the best thing for you to be doing while tracking away from a formation. Sometimes it is hard to take advice from the internet. You have some world class RW and free fliers at your DZ and right down the road at Perris. Speak to your instructors, at least I assume you respect them and what they have to say.

Dom

[aresye 0]

I do respect my instructors at Elsinore. Definitely a big thanks to Mark, Lob, and Montana, who's not an instructor, but has given me good advice on other things, in addition to spending a lot of his personal time with me on packing class, and other times that my military schedule prevented me from doing it with a regular time. Unfortunately, I am no longer in San Diego. I have moved to my permanent duty station here in Jacksonville, FL. I drive down to Palatka to skydive, so I'll be sure to ask Art about what he thinks about barrel rolls. Although truth be told, I think I've already gotten a good amount of advice, and evidence that it's not a good idea.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[dgskydive 0]

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Palatka to skydive

When you talk to Art, tell him I said hello.

Now I am scared of what he will tell you to do!!!!!

Dont believe anything that Jean says about me.

Dom

[popsjumper 2]

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New guys will keep coming up with the same apparently good, but dangerous and idiotic ideas over and over again. (This applies to everything, not just skydiving)

There's the key as to why we must keep discussing topics over and over again. For those who have been around a while, I know it gets frustrating but we have youngsters joing us here and they need to be guided.

Please accept your moral responsibility to help them grow safely.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Dont believe anything that Jean says about me.

You may be able to buy off Jean...but MY knowledge is gonna cost ya'.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[format 1]

*On the bright side though, at least I'm not suggesting a toggle to untwist! ***

I don't recall me being proven wrong.
Attacked? Hell yes!

I've learned a thing or two on it but never changed my mind.

And I was NOT suggesting but sharing experience.

What goes around, comes later.

[dgskydive 0]

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You may be able to buy off Jean...but MY knowledge is gonna cost ya'.

If I could buy Jean, I would have a long time ago!!
You on the other hand Mr., our paths will cross again someday and I am a sneaky fuck when I want to be.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

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I don't recall me being proven wrong.
Attacked? Hell yes!

I've learned a thing or two on it but never changed my mind.

And I was NOT suggesting but sharing experience.

You sir, are a statistic, you just dont know it yet. If you dont get that, how about "Deadman walking"?

I only hope you make it long enough to one day realize how much you dont know.

I also really like in the other thread how you never addressed that fact that while you are picking an choosing what Brian said. You are clearly going against his wing loading recommendations. If you would follow his recommendations, you never would have been in the situation in the first place.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

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You sir, are a statistic, you just dont know it yet. Frown If you dont get that, how about "Deadman walking"?

BTW, I am not suggesting that this will happen. I am sharing my experience with you on the subject.

Dom

[Tuna-Salad 0]

Well since this thread took a turn about how to track and all that, answer this please.
Why is it reccomended that I keep my arms at a 45 degree angle like a delta instead of at my sides and streamlined? I have good heading control in a track in both the delta and streamlined position so am I missing something? Would you not go much further much faster?

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[kallend 2,027]

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Well since this thread took a turn about how to track and all that, answer this please.
Why is it reccomended that I keep my arms at a 45 degree angle like a delta instead of at my sides and streamlined? I have good heading control in a track in both the delta and streamlined position so am I missing something? Would you not go much further much faster?

Who recommended it?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[dgskydive 0]

Not sure why they recommended that. Did it come from the P3 document? I didnt read it. I have never been told to do that.

I wont say that there is "one perfect" body position for every single jumper. What I would recommend to anyone is to get involved in skills camps. The only way, in my opinion, to know what works best for you is to have experienced bigway flat trackers actually look at your tracks and then your specific track can be tweaked to help you get the best out of it.

What works best for me is to have my arms in tight and pushing down with them and to cup a lot of air with my mid section by pushing my ass up in the air. And having my feet turned out to use the surface area of my booties to their full effect.

Dom

[collinb 0]

it is possible that at your stage of progression, 102 jumps, that you will actually travel further in a delta than a max track, arms in close to your sides. In my early days when I turned to track I was so aggressive that I went down, a more vertical movement than horizontal movement. It takes time to master going to a max track immediately. with a 100 odd jumps you may actually do better in the delta.
talk to your local instructor or coach and see what they recommend to do and progress from delta to track to max track.

happy new year everyone, be safe
Blue Skies Soft Landings
Collin

[format 1]

Now you are talking my language,
wellcome to the Boston Celtics.

I know 2009 will be mighty fine... for you.

This was a vision sharing.

_____
Jim J.

What goes around, comes later.

[billvon 2,991]

>Why is it reccomended that I keep my arms at a 45 degree angle like
> a delta instead of at my sides and streamlined?

This is a much easier way to track (the delta track.) It keeps you stable and gives you good fall rate control. A max track is an unstable-feeling maneuver that is prone to heading changes. (If it feels stable, you're doing it wrong!) Most jumpers doing first small loads and then bigways gradually progress from a delta track to the max track position.

[Andy_Copland 0]

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If it feels stable, you're doing it wrong

What do you mean by that?

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[billvon 2,991]

>What do you mean by that?

In an ideal flat track, you are dearching, cupping your shoulders and chest and putting a slight curve into your body to make it a more efficient glider. The dearch renders you somewhat unstable.