J1 w/Spectre 170 & PD 143 okay for beginner?

[skydivecarol 0]

Hi,

I am a beginner, with about 55 jumps. I'm 5'2'' and 140 pounds. I am interested in purchasing a Javelin 1 with a Spectre 170, PD 143.

Most of my jumps are in a student 190, however I've jumped a Spectre 170 a couple of times. I did okay. It was a bit snappier and faster, but I still landed on the grass. The first two times I did PFL and the third time I landed on my feet. It definatley felt more responsive and I can't say that I am used to it yet. However, it was suggested to me to get it because it will not take long to go from student 190 to spectre 170.

Another question, is $3700 a decent deal on a Javelin 1 with about 800 jumps, DOM 1998, fully articulated chrome hardware, PD 143 & spectre 170? It has cypress. A couple of jump buddies told me I should only pay about $3000. I'm new, I don't know what to do. I don't want to get ripped off, although I don't feel that at $3700 I will get ripped off--but I don't know!!!

Any feedback/suggestions are appreciated!

I am editing this post, adding the following info:

The Spectre 170 has 600 jumps DOM 1/01. PD 143R - no rides DOM 10/98. Cypres2 DOM 4/05

Hopefully that can help for the feedback regarding the price. Also, I have another concern with Blink's post, that putting a 170 in a J1 which he says is supposed to have 150 max size. Does anybody know if the J1 can hold up and maintain well with a used Spectre 170. I have heard of others fitting a spectre 170 in their J1 just fine...but don't know. Finally, is putting the Spectre 170 in the J1 a safety risk? Afterall, SAFETY is my top priority!!!!

[VTmotoMike08 0]

Quote

Hi,

Another question, is $3700 a decent deal on a Javelin 1 with about 800 jumps, DOM 1998, fully articulated chrome hardware, PD 143 & spectre 170? It has cypress. A couple of jump buddies told me I should only pay about $3000. I'm new, I don't know what to do. I don't want to get ripped off, although I don't feel that at $3700 I will get ripped off--but I don't know!!!

Is that the DOM and jump numbers for the entire system, or just the container? How is the overall condition? How many years are left on the cypress? If it is also 1998, it has only about 2 years left. Jumps on the reserve? Provide just a little more info and I am sure you will get some good responses.

I only have about 2 years in the sport, but I consider myself fairly savvy about gear pricing. My initial inclination is that $3700 is a little steep for a 10 year old rig.

[hackish 8]

I won't tell you how appropriate a 170 is for someone with your jump numbers - I'm not an instructor. I have done about 35 jumps on my sabre2 170 and am still alive. Not everyone is the same and your local instructors can give the best advice on it's applicability to you and your skill level.

The thing I would be concerned about is the size of the reserve. If you're used to flying a 170 then I'm guessing a PD143R is going to sail along a lot faster than you want. The other concern is that in a 2 out situation the more similar in size your 2 canopies are the better behaved they tend to be.

In my rig I am pretty sure I have a PD163R. Normalize the price for the fact I have no AAD (yet) and I paid what you are considering for a rig with less than 1/2 the jumps and probably 5 years newer.

-Michael

[Blink 1]

Just something to add that was asked around our dropzone and several times on here:

The Javelin J-1, whether it's a J1 or J1K has a MAX size of main as 150 square feet. Putting a larger main in a container then recommended by the manufacturer can cause stress to different parts of the container, causing damage to the rig. So there is a chance the owner as is has put a lot of stress on the rig, (grommets, stiffeners, fabric, etc), not to mention the stress you would be puitting on it everytime you jumped and packed it.

Just something to think about, the manufacturers have limits for a reason.

Note: I am not a rigger, just re-iterating what I've heard from several riggers.

[tigra 0]

The price seems very high to me. Keep in mind regardless of the condition of the gear, you've only got 2 years left on the cypres and at some point you'll want a re-line on the main. Have you looked through the classified section here for similar gear?

Not to mention- how are your packing skills? The Spectre 170 has got to be a tight fit in a J1 that's really made for a 150 if I'm not mistaken. (yeah, its a 7 cell and will pack a little smaller but........)

[skybytch 273]

Quote

In my rig I am pretty sure I have a PD163R.

Assuming that's a typo, cuz there ain't no such thing as a PD163R.

[billvon 3,067]

>Putting a larger main in a container then recommended by
>the manufacturer can cause stress to different parts of the container,
>causing damage to the rig.

Agreed. However, the Spectre packs up slightly smaller than similar canopies.

Sabre 170 451 cu in
Xfire 169 492 cu in
Spectre 170 416 cu in


If I were considering this rig, I'd want to pack it a few times to see how the system fit together. It might be OK, it might be a bit too tight.

[skydivecarol 0]

Thanks everybody for your valuable feedback--it's greatly appreciated!!!!

[erdnarob 1]

Hi Carol,

Your weight is 140 Lbs therefore with a Sabre 2-170 and an exit weight of 165 Lbs, you will get a load factor of less than 1 lbs/sq ft (0.97 to be exact) which is a student load factor.

It depends on you and how you perform under canopy. If you are good at it (check with an instructor who knows you well) I would rather suggest you to try a Sabre 2-150 or equivalent for 10 jumps and if it goes well there will be no problem to go on and try a 135 zero porosity canopy.

But always make sure to have plenty of space in front of you at landing therefore plan your descent under canopy carefully and stick to the plan. For no reason even if you find out you are not exactely landing into the wind, ALWAYS KEEP GOING STRAIGHT FORWARD keeping the toggles very symetrical even on the ground. (Have a good briefing for flare). Well briefed, the worst thing which can happen is to have grass green stains on your jumpsuit seat.

I know a lot of people will desagree with me but I prefer to tell somebody to go smaller according their weight (within a certain limit) provided he/she is well supervised and good at it than telling somebody to keep on jumping a big canopy and left alone. A 135 canopy will give you a load factor of 1.22 which OK provided you are careful. A big canopy can hurt you with an inappropriate technique. A canopy more at your size (for you 135-150) with a good supervision should be alright and give you more satisfaction.

Advantages of not having a too big parachute: The loading factor is your engine, more loading factor and more speed (to be handle with care) and better penetration thru the wind. With a load factor below 1, expect to be limited by a wind not suitable for student. Otherwise you would back up and will be unable to choose your landing area.

Advantage to choose your landing area: When you have a bad spot (that can happen anytime) and jumping in an area near a town or forest or whatever obstacles, jumping a canopy with a load factor of 0.97 will make you not able to land necessarily in a safe area especially if it is windy. More speed is very welcome in such a condition.

A lot of skydivers are like grandfathers or doctors. They are not confident toward beginners enough and have the tendency to be too protective.
I just got an inguinal hernia surgery exactely 3 and half weeks ago. Some friends told me, no jumping for 3 months, nurses told me to wait 2 months before resuming sport activities, others say 1 month before lifting 50 pounds (I never mention to doctors or nurses about skydiving, they would have freaked out) but this past Monday I jumped, there was a good breeze and I landed like a butterfly. (BTW I load my Katana at 1.6 but I have some experience).
Carol, as an educator I believe in education. A good brienfing and a good supervision, nothing better.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[dragon2 2]

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A big canopy can hurt you with an inappropriate technique

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????



And how is that, and how is a 170 big for a 140 lbs person anyway

edit to say:
According to our national rules, a 170 is EXACTLY what she would be jumping if she were Dutch. So far, we have had way LESS injuries than before the canopy rules, so I call bulls*t on your "bigger canopy = dangerous and more speed helps" in fact most of my friends (mostly those that are ~130 lbs girls) are jumping 190-170-150 canopies even by the time they have hundreds of jumps. They are glad of it when they have to land out, although the 190 is probably going to go soon to be replaced by a 170.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[billvon 3,067]

> If you are good at it (check with an instructor who knows you well) I
>would rather suggest you to try a Sabre 2-150 or equivalent . . .
>. . . try a 135 zero porosity canopy.

This is extremely poor advice for someone who has stood up 1 out of 3 landings on a 170.

>A 135 canopy will give you a load factor of 1.22 which OK provided you are careful.

"Being careful" causes more broken femurs than any other attitude in this sport, I have discovered. It's a very poor approach to canopy flight. A new jumper is MUCH better off jumping a canopy they can experiment with than a canopy they have to be super careful under. You don't learn anything flying a canopy carefully on every jump.

>expect to be limited by a wind not suitable for student.

This is a good guideline for most new jumpers.

>Some friends told me, no jumping for 3 months, nurses told me to wait 2 months . . .

Don Swayze had your mindset after he broke his foot, and jumped fairly soon after the surgery. They ended up amputating his foot after he re-injured it.

[LuvToFly 0]

I had always been told that having a reserve that is this much smaller than your main is NOT a good idea for a new jumper.

For one thing, bets are that most jumpers have never even flown a canopy of that size under any circumstances - and during an emergency is not the time to be learning to navigate a canopy which you have never piloted and cannot predict its responses.

The safety risk you are concerned about is the fitting of the 170 into the 150 - whereas I think the true safety risk that is being glossed over is the reserve size and your inexperience piloting anything like that in this case. 30 SF does matter - particularly with low jump numbers.

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[tigra 0]

I don't think anything was glossed over at all. I'm personally not about to touch the wingloading question, especially not here, over the internet with someone I've never met. If she wants to talk wingloading, either for her main or reserve, it should be with someone who knows her and her canopy flying skills not a bunch of stranger on the internet (no matter how good our intentions are.)

But she also asked about the gear in general- if it sounded like a good set up for a good price. That's a much more appropriate question for this forum, don't you think?

[LuvToFly 0]

I disagree. As a new jumper, she may not be aware of a potential danger to herself as to the wingloading issue.

A mentioning of that potential in any forum might be something she can then pick up with the instructor of her choice, and be better off for it.

If it's never mentioned as a consideration, she will never know to ask.

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[tigra 0]

Well, for the record, the size of the reserve and the size of the reserve in relation to the size of the main WAS mentioned earlier. Nothing was glossed over.

Wingloading was also addressed- the answers ranged from "That's too high" to "downsize even more" with a few in between all from people who don't know her and have never seen her fly or land a canopy. She'll probably buy a 135 because it will be easier to pack and she'll get better penetration on days that would otherwise be too windy to jump. Yup- wingloading advice on the internet is great!

[fallfast69 3]

Quote

Hi Carol,

Your weight is 140 Lbs therefore with a Sabre 2-170 and an exit weight of 165 Lbs, you will get a load factor of less than 1 lbs/sq ft (0.97 to be exact) which is a student load factor.

It depends on you and how you perform under canopy. If you are good at it (check with an instructor who knows you well) I would rather suggest you to try a Sabre 2-150 or equivalent for 10 jumps and if it goes well there will be no problem to go on and try a 135 zero porosity canopy.

But always make sure to have plenty of space in front of you at landing therefore plan your descent under canopy carefully and stick to the plan. For no reason even if you find out you are not exactely landing into the wind, ALWAYS KEEP GOING STRAIGHT FORWARD keeping the toggles very symetrical even on the ground. (Have a good briefing for flare). Well briefed, the worst thing which can happen is to have grass green stains on your jumpsuit seat.

I know a lot of people will desagree with me but I prefer to tell somebody to go smaller according their weight (within a certain limit) provided he/she is well supervised and good at it than telling somebody to keep on jumping a big canopy and left alone. A 135 canopy will give you a load factor of 1.22 which OK provided you are careful. A big canopy can hurt you with an inappropriate technique. A canopy more at your size (for you 135-150) with a good supervision should be alright and give you more satisfaction.

Advantages of not having a too big parachute: The loading factor is your engine, more loading factor and more speed (to be handle with care) and better penetration thru the wind. With a load factor below 1, expect to be limited by a wind not suitable for student. Otherwise you would back up and will be unable to choose your landing area.

Advantage to choose your landing area: When you have a bad spot (that can happen anytime) and jumping in an area near a town or forest or whatever obstacles, jumping a canopy with a load factor of 0.97 will make you not able to land necessarily in a safe area especially if it is windy. More speed is very welcome in such a condition.

A lot of skydivers are like grandfathers or doctors. They are not confident toward beginners enough and have the tendency to be too protective.
I just got an inguinal hernia surgery exactely 3 and half weeks ago. Some friends told me, no jumping for 3 months, nurses told me to wait 2 months before resuming sport activities, others say 1 month before lifting 50 pounds (I never mention to doctors or nurses about skydiving, they would have freaked out) but this past Monday I jumped, there was a good breeze and I landed like a butterfly. (BTW I load my Katana at 1.6 but I have some experience).
Carol, as an educator I believe in education. A good brienfing and a good supervision, nothing better.

Carol, this advice is bullshit. The poster is is trying to be funny. I'd be a little more concerned about the size of the reserve. I would advise you to do a demo on a 143 to see how it feels before you wind-up under it in less than ideal circumstances.

Jon

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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>expect to be limited by a wind not suitable for student.

This is a good guideline for most new jumpers.

A 135 is about 12% faster at trim speed than a 170 which translates into a couple MPH of forward speed. In practical terms there isn't any difference.

There aren't any wind conditions in which I'd be willing to jump my 105 but not my 120 or 135 although the speed difference there is a lot higher because I can get 200 pounds under there with my beer belly.

Since high winds often imply gusty winds and turbulence, there are surprisingly few days when I'd be willing to jump my 105 but not one of my 245s. Obviously that makes not getting down wind of the landing area more critical if you want to land in.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Hi Carol,

Advantage to choose your landing area: When you have a bad spot (that can happen anytime) and jumping in an area near a town or forest or whatever obstacles, jumping a canopy with a load factor of 0.97 will make you not able to land necessarily in a safe area especially if it is windy. More speed is very welcome in such a condition.

You can always go down-wind and are going to have more range to get over obstacles with a bigger canopy because the lower sink rate keeps you in the winds longer. If there's an endless forest or something there are going to be plenty of cases where the extra speed isn't enough; so you might as well have more square footage to make for tree landings with less energy.

I've jumped accuracy canopies below .7 pounds per square foot. There's nothing dangerous about it unless you compensate for the more forgiving canopy my making riskier choices in landing areas.

Quote

A lot of skydivers are like grandfathers or doctors. They are not confident toward beginners enough and have the tendency to be too protective.

I can't count how many broken bones I've seen, although a disproportionate number went with wing loading in excess of what the experts feel is prudent (< 1.0 pounds per square foot + .1/100 jumps with adjustments for canopies under 150 square feet, density altitude, etc). Two (both wrists) were on a little girl who downsized to a 150 or 170 before she had the hang of landing bigger canopies because people told her it would be OK.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/article.php

Heeding their advice over those of us with a just a few thousand jumps and limited experience teaching students would be a fine idea. Local advice to be more conservative because some one has seen your bad landings is fine.

A broken bone can mean no jumping for 6 months and set you back $5K+ with health and disability insurance ($40K+ without) not to mention the discomfort and stress you put on the people who take care of you.

[fallfast69 3]

I can't believe you guys are responding to this post...did you read it? For whatever reason, this lengthy post is intended as a joke. Aside from the advise being outright dangerous, he said something about how bad it is to get grass stains on the ass of your jump-suit...please...

It's worded in such a manner as to lend creditability...but really...in 2008, is this really something you would tell one of YOUR young up-and-comers?

Jon

[erdnarob 1]

My lengthy post is certainly not a joke. I gave Carol figures about her question and at least five warnings about getting briefed or checked by an instructor who knows her who knows her, who knows her.....you got it?
I also started by telling her to jump 10 times with a Sabre 150 after a good briefing with an instructor who knows her...is it enough. If by any chance the instructor who knows her decides she is not ready then she will have to wait before downsizing. I hope I made it clear this time.
Now about my surgery recovery. Well I don't know if I am a bionic man but I always recover fast but I know it's not the case for everybody. Probably the movie actor wasn't like me. I can tell you that I broke an ankle few years ago and 4 and half weeks after I was jumping. The orthopedist showed me on X-ray my ankle bone healing very well and this 3 weeks after the accident. Then I asked him to get my plaster removed. He wasn't happy but he did what I have asked. I told him I will be careful.
Do you know how long it takes to lose your muscle tonus when not using a muscle: 3 days. Waiting too long is good for the bones but a disaster for the muscles and you need both of them. There is a ideal delay I guess depending on the person and on the kind of injury.
Education and confidence, not overprotection.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[billvon 3,067]

>I gave Carol figures about her question and at least five warnings
>about getting briefed or checked by an instructor who knows her who knows
>her, who knows her.....you got it?

And I've watched people die under canopies they weren't ready for. Once that happens to you, I suspect you will feel differently about advising them to downsize rapidly.

>Probably the movie actor wasn't like me.

He was every bit as confident as you are in his ability to heal, and his skill in protecting his injury. 99% of skydivers out there think they are significantly better canopy pilots/faster healers/faster thinkers/better under pressure than the average. Most of them are wrong.

>I told him I will be careful.

That's what will nearly guarantee a more severe injury.

[EirAnne 0]

Getting back to the questions asked.
Firstly the size of the main is reasonable for your weight and experience level. The Spectre is a good entry level canopy and has predictable openings. It is not as zippy as a Sabre2 as it is a 7 cell and is not tapered, but maybe save that for your next canopy.

I am concerned that you are thinking of purchasing a reserve that is so much smaller than your main. With a 170 main, a 176 or 160 reserve is appropriate. Bear in mind that if you need to use the reserve, you are likely to be low and the chances of landing off are increased. Do you really want to now be in the position of jumping a much smaller canopy as well? In that situation, wouldn't you want every last bit of square footage over your head that you can get with your low experience level?

The Spectre in the J1 will be tight (it would be ok in J1K), making packing a challenge, but it is not dangerously so. It will just look a bit ugly.

Looking at the pricing of the rig. It appears steep. The Cypres is worth about $1025 according to the cypres evaluation chart. The J1 would be around $600 - 750 depending on condition. PD143 is not worth more than $600 and the Spectre around $800. Altogether you are looking at not more than $3200 tops for entire thing. Look on classifieds to give you a rounded picture of what is available on the market.

I would suggest that for $3800 you should be able to pick up a J2K with reserve, Cypres 2 and Nice main. You can put a 160 reserve in there.

I am an instructor/rigger and new/used gear dealer.

Blue skies

[tigra 0]

What 10 year old cypres is worth $1025.00???

[fallfast69 3]

Quote

It depends on you and how you perform under canopy. If you are good at it (check with an instructor who knows you well) I would rather suggest you to try a Sabre 2-150 or equivalent for 10 jumps and if it goes well there will be no problem to go on and try a 135 zero porosity canopy.

But always make sure to have plenty of space in front of you at landing therefore plan your descent under canopy carefully and stick to the plan. For no reason even if you find out you are not exactely landing into the wind, ALWAYS KEEP GOING STRAIGHT FORWARD keeping the toggles very symetrical even on the ground. (Have a good briefing for flare). Well briefed, the worst thing which can happen is to have grass green stains on your jumpsuit seat.

You are telling her downsize from a 190 to a 135 in 10 jumps...using a 150 as the transition canopy?

And you're telling her to "always make sure to have plenty of space in front of you at landing therefore plan your descent under canopy carefully and stick to the plan."
Who in the world can "always make sure" of something like that?

You go on to say "ALWAYS KEEP GOING STRAIGHT FORWARD keeping the toggles very symetrical even on the ground."
You know very well this isn't realistic. There will be many landings where you must do slight left or right input, even during the flare, to keep from falling off the windline AND the smaller the canopy, the more magnified this effect becomes.

Like I said, you have worded the post to lend some creditability, however your advice is inappropriate for someone with 55 jumps.

Jon

[dragon2 2]

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The Spectre is not tapered

Um yes it is

ciel bleu,
Saskia